The importance of getting pregnancy "right"

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Fair Use and educatin

http://www.reuters.com/article/healthNews/idUSTRE4BA0UD20081211?feedType=RSS&feedName=healthNews

Higher cerebral palsy risk in late pre-term babies

Thu Dec 11, 2008 12:10am EST

By Will Dunham
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Babies born four to six weeks prematurely have more than triple the risk of developing cerebral palsy than full-term babies, U.S. researchers said on Thursday.

The study focused on the specific serious neurological problems associated with late pre-term births -- babies born between 34 and 36 weeks of pregnancy. Increasing numbers of these babies are being born in the United States.

Researchers led by Joann Petrini, an epidemiologist with the March of Dimes advocacy group, tracked 141,321 babies born between 2000 and 2004 in the United States.

The late pre-term babies were about 3.4 times as likely to develop cerebral palsy as full-term babies. They also were about 25 percent more likely to develop learning, speech and other developmental delays and mental retardation as full-term babies, according to the study.
Cerebral palsy refers to a group of disorders that affect a child's ability to coordinate body movements. Symptoms range from mild to severe and may include lack of muscle coordination, stiff muscles and exaggerated reflexes, walking problems, drooling and tremors.

It is incurable and frequently requires long-term care. Other neurological problems including mental retardation or seizures may appear in children who have cerebral palsy.

About 800,000 children and adults in the United States have cerebral palsy, according to the March of Dimes.

"We know that very pre-term babies have higher rates of cerebral palsy from existing research, but this paper shows that even the late pre-term babies are three times as likely to be diagnosed with cerebral palsy as full-term babies," Petrini said in a telephone interview.

In this study, very pre-term babies -- those born after 30 to 33 weeks of pregnancy -- were eight times as likely to develop cerebral palsy as full-term babies.

The researchers said previous studies showed that late pre-term babies also had higher rates of respiratory distress, jaundice, seizures, feeding problems and other problems.

In the United States, growing numbers of babies are being born prematurely. About 70 percent of all pre-term births fall into this late pre-term birth category.

Petrini cited several factors behind the rise in late pre-term births. These include more older women and women with obesity, diabetes and high blood pressure having babies, more babies being delivered by Caesarean section, and more being conceived after fertility treatments.
(Editing by Anthony Boadle)

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Copied in full under fair use/education provisions.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/12/081216114746.htm (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/12/081216114746.htm)

ScienceDaily (Dec. 18, 2008) — Schizophrenia and autism probably share a common origin, hypothesises Dutch researcher Annemie Ploeger following an extensive literature study. The developmental psychologist demonstrated that both mental diseases have similar physical abnormalities which are formed during the first month of pregnancy.

Peculiar toes
Developmental psychologist Annemie Ploeger has investigated whether there is a connection between disorders in the first month of pregnancy and the development of schizophrenia and autism. Interestingly, many physical abnormalities of autistics are also prevalent in schizophrenics. For example, both autistics and schizophrenics sometimes have protruding ears and peculiar toes. There are also differences: a large head and intestinal problems, for example, are typical traits occurring in autistics. From this, Ploeger concluded that the two disorders share a common origin. The same error that occurs very early in pregnancy develops into autism in one individual and schizophrenia in another.

Early vulnerability
Ploeger's research reveals that in the period between 20 and 40 days after fertilisation, the embryo is highly susceptible to disruptions. In this period, early organogenesis, there is a lot of interaction between the different parts of the body. If something goes wrong with a given part of the body, it greatly influences the development of other parts of the body. As people with schizophrenia and autism frequently have physical abnormalities to body parts formed during early organogenesis, Ploeger concluded that the foundation for these psychiatric disorders is laid very early during pregnancy.
The existence of a relationship between unhealthy behaviour during pregnancy and the subsequent development of schizophrenia and autism in the child was already known. However, Ploeger's hypothesis that the early organogenesis stage is the most critical, is new. Ploeger bases her hypothesis on an extensive study of scientific literature in this area. She often had to make use of related studies; although a lot of research has been done into prenatal influences on the development of schizophrenia and autism, little is known about the influence that the period between 20 to 40 days after fertilisation has.

Toxic pregnancy medicine
For example, she acquired information about autism from a study into softenon use. Softenon is a drug against morning sickness that was administered to women in the 1960s and 1970s. Later it was discovered that severely disabled children were born as a result of this medicine. Autistic children were born in four percent of pregnancies in which softenon was used, whereas normally this figure is 0.1 percent. Women could state exactly when they started to take softenon. The women who had taken softenon between the 20th and 24th day of the pregnancy had the greatest chance of giving birth to an autistic child.

Ploeger advises women to stop risky behaviour such as smoking, medicine use and stressful activities before they even become pregnant. If you only start to live healthily once you know that you are pregnant, the basis for a disrupted development of your child could already have been laid.

Ploeger's research was partly financed by NWO is within the research programme Evolution and Behaviour. The doctoral thesis "Towards an integration of evolutionary psychology and developmental science: New insights from evolutionary developmental biology" was defended on 3 December 2008. The supervisor was Prof. H.L.J. van der Maas, associate supervisors: Dr M.E.J. Raijmakers, Dr F. Galis

[Nirvana]

I think great care should be taken by expectant parents even before they decide to start trying for a baby. The mental, emotional and physcial wellbeing of both the partners can have tremendous effect on the progeny.

In Ayurveda, couples who wish to get pregnant are advised to go for Panchakarma treatment which involves a series of treatments, dietery changes etc to remove the toxins from the body and create a strong, healthy foundation for the future generation.

I guess this is going slightly OT but I feel the gist here is very important and pertinent to the original post.

Here are few sites to explain better what I am saying

The first link is a pdf
http://www.ayurveda-seminars.com/pdfs/Ayurveda-for-Pre-Conception.pdf

This link goes in detail about what care has to be taken once a woman is pregnant
http://garbhasanskar.com/

If the conditions are favorable for a healthy progeny, then I feel there would be even lesser number of illnesses, disorders etc in children today.

Most couples are not in tune with their bodies and hence there is a great number of couples facing infertility and opting for further invasive treatments. If we take good care of our bodies by not polluting it with dead, inactive food and much more then we give the future generation a better chance and healthier life.

Deepali

[Janet]

The greatest impact on the outcome of a pregnancy ie birth, is the model of care we choose.

Evidence based care is that of a midwife (http://www.joyousbirth.info/articles/midwiferymodel.html), preferably one independent of any institutions.

It doesn't matter how healthy a woman is if she chooses the medical model (http://www.joyousbirth.info/articles/stepping-outside-the-system.html)because it pathologises her no matter what. Plenty of very healthy women and babies end up in surgery because a surgeon - or team of them - was the main careprovider.

[Nirvana]

Of course, birth setting too is an important aspect but if the very soil where a seed is germinated is not in its pure, clean form, then how can we be assured that the plant grows into the original, unharmed form it was meant to.

I couldn't think of a better explanation than this at the moment. I agree that women nowadays are coerced into lots of unnecessary tests, procedures. It is one of the things I have now started despising about the current healthcare scenario. But don't you think that if these women were in their optimum health before they got pregnant and continued to take great care of themselves through natural methods, perhaps the need for frequent checkups would come down too?

[Serephina]

Wot Janet said ;)

Doesn't matter how healthy you are, if you are pregnant and in the system you will have the blood tests, ultrasounds and whatever else they tell you that you *need* to do.

While personally I'd love for my partner and I to have a full Panchakarma treatment before trying to conceive frankly it's cost prohibitive and too time consuming for most people. Although I could certainly get used to regular Shirodhara, it's total bliss and the best thing for stress relief.

[Quickening]

But don't you think that if these women were in their optimum health before they got pregnant and continued to take great care of themselves through natural methods, perhaps the need for frequent checkups would come down too?

If women were in optimum health before they got pregnant, I would say there would be a lot less occurences of problems in pregnancy and birth that are related to poor diet - like weak placentas, suspectibility to haemorrhage, pre-eclampsia etc. It won't do anything to help minimise the occurence of problems that are due to how childbirth is medically managed - and that includes haemorrhage and a host of other things.

The need for frequent checkups won't come down. Pregnancy and birth are highly profitable businesses. More ultrasounds are given for bogus reasons because the care provider makes money off them. The more check ups, the more diagnositc tests they manage to come up with - the more money! Like Chomsky says, profit over the people.

I think the point the others were making is to be aware of how you birth. You could be optimally healthy only to put all that in danger by subjecting normal biological mechanisms of your body to management that doesn't respect the natural functions of your body. You could end up with your health and that of your babys at risk despite your optimal nutrition.

[Nirvana]

I just listed Ayurveda as an example. It's not feasible for everyone to go for the panchakarma treatment and I do agree with Serephina about the Shirodhara ;)

I still cannot quite understand how the way one gives birth affects the baby more than prenatal nutrition. I mean as much as I would love to have a home birth, it's just not an option for me in India or UAE. I did my best to search for options to labor in water and that's what I could do at the hospital I chose in India. I will admit that I would have felt so much more in control if I was not induced because my waters broke and I was still 1 cm dilated. In my heart of hearts, I wanted to deliver my baby on my own, with as little outside help but that was just not a possibility. So what can I do? I do my best to take care of my body, my health, my nutrition, my emotional state of mind and expect my husband does the same. That's the most women like me who don't have ready access to doula, midwives, homebirths can do.

Problem is most of the women who are trying to conceive don't do even what is possible for them. So when it is a given that one has to go to hospital and rely on OBs to help them deliver their babies, there are still some things that are in our control. Unfortunately, not many women I know do that.

On a whim I just decided to check for prenatal nutrition and it's effects on the progeny.

Here's what I found

http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/abstract/128/2/401S
Programming by Early Nutrition: An Experimental Approach



Alan Lucas

MRC Childhood Nutrition Research Centre, Institute of Child Health, London WC1N 1EH, United Kingdom That events during critical or sensitive periods of development may "program" long-term or life-time structure or function of the organism is well recognized. Evidence for programming by nutrition is established in animals, in whom brief pre- or postnatal nutritional manipulations may program adult size, metabolism, blood lipids, diabetes, blood pressure, obesity, atherosclerosis, learning, behavior and life span. Human epidemiological data link potential markers of early nutrition (size at birth or in infancy) to cardiovascular disease and its risk factors in adulthood. However, these retrospective data cannot prove nutritional cause or underpin health policies. After 16 y, however, of ethical, randomized intervention studies of early nutrition in humans with long-term follow-up to test experimentally the nutritional programming hypothesis, we find that humans, like other species, have sensitive windows for nutrition in terms of later outcomes; for instance, perinatal diet influences neurodevelopment and bone mineralization into mid-childhood. Possible biological mechanisms for storing throughout life the "memory" of early nutritional experience and its expression in adulthood include adaptive changes in gene expression, preferential clonal selection of adapted cells in programmed tissues and programmed differential proliferation of tissue cell types. Animal and human evidence supporting nutritional programming has major potential biological and medical significance.
Key words: nutritional programming, sensitive period, adult health, cognitive development.

The Journal of Nutrition Vol. 128 No. 2 February 1998, pp. 401S-406S
Copyright ©1998 by the American Society for Nutritional Sciences


The fulltext can be found here
http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/128/2/401S

[Serephina]

Nirvana I agree with you that good nutrition is very important for everyone, pregnant or not.

But birth is also incredibly important to the development of a healthy gut and immune system. My basic understanding is that at birth babies guts are sterile and ideally should be colonised with bacteria from the mother's vagina and from skin to skin contact after birth.

Here's just a few studies I found displaying the importance of gut flora and the impact that the type of birth can have.


Importance of microbial colonization of the gut in early life to the development of immunity (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17612575)


Fecal microflora in healthy infants born by different methods of delivery: permanent changes in intestinal flora after cesarean delivery (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9890463)


Factors influencing the composition of the intestinal microbiota in early infancy (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16882802)


I'm sorry you weren't able to access the care you wanted for your pregnancy and birth. It should be a basic human right to be able to access evidence based care in pregnancy but sadly it doesn't happen that way for many. I guess that's why I am wary of focusing exclusively on the nutrition side of things when the system in many countries including Australia, and by the sounds of it the UAE and India too, is failing women miserably.

[Quickening]

The gut flora makes up 70 percent of the immune system. Like Serephina said, babies guts are sterile until they are birthed. If the mother births outside of her familiar home environment, she exposes herself and her baby to unfamiliar bacteria. There are several factors that set the stage for immune system development and where / how you give birth are big contributors.

From the top of my head, there is research by Dr. Michel Odent in the Primal Health database he set up. Basically it says that the first bacteria to get to a sterile vacuum are the ones who will rule the kingdom and set the stage for gut health. If potential pathogens like the ones present at hospital or on the hands of drs/mws are the first to get there, they set up ecological niches in the gut straightaway. It is really hard to kick out bacteria that have taken up residence. It is easier to set the stage for optimal gut health in the beginning than it is to try and fix it later.

That is one example of how birth affects a baby more than prenatal nutrition. Another example would be a baby who is perfectly healthy thanks to optimal diet in pg only to end up delivered by caesarean surgery due to the cascade of intervention and ends up with respiratory problems, poor gut health and a scalpel wound on their head and ends up being separated from their mother and formula fed because of how the mother's body has been affected by surgery.


That's the most women like me who don't have ready access to doula, midwives, homebirths can do.That sucks about the lack of birthing choices in your country. Did you know you can still homebirth without a midwife or doula? All it takes to have a homebirth is a pregnant woman in labour who decides to stay at home! Lots of babies in the world are born this way. Hospitals and medical management of birth is a relatively new phenomonem.

[Janet]

Yes indeedy nutrition is important, pregnant or not. However birthing with surgeons has so many risks to it that the model of care we choose is ultimately going to have the greatest impact on our early parenting experience. Women who are traumatised, experience surgeries whether abdominal or vaginal, separation from their babies, difficulty establishing breastfeeding, PTSD, PND, and all the other common outcomes from out-of-home-birth are not going to be able to parent effectively or happily. We know that a traumatic birth leads to problems with bonding and breastfeeding and that normal nutrition is thus often denied to those babies who have already experienced significant injuries via hospital protocols. Gut damage, inappropriate colonisation of bacteria, infection risk, likelihood of separation from their mother, poor breastfeeding support, glucose or artificial baby milks forced on them, all these are normal in hospitals.

Birthing at home is how to avoid it and what the evidence supports. :) Birthing at home with your family is still how most women give birth. Very normal, just birth. :)

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Okay, I think I started this thread off incorrectly.

The "thinking line" I was taking, has nothing to do with birth, even though as you have all said, birth is very important.

But birth, for instance, has no impact on "in utero" gene expression which might result in a baby having a neurological deficit, or an immune system defect.

Birth will have nothing to do with the mother who has serial E.coli infections during pregnancy, which seriously affect in utero gene expression causing FTT in utero and kidney development problems..., and the antibiotics used (instead of vitamin C, which is the most effective treatment) also affect both gene expression, and the immune system-to-come of the baby, regardless of how the gut is colonised.

Babies who are behind the 8 ball in utero, are going to be far more impacted by incorrect gut flora inoculation than any other baby.

I will talk about gut flora innoculation in another thread, but THAT is also dependant upon what sort of health the mother is in. If the mother is medicalised and has had thrush repeatedly, antibiotics and her own gut flora, vaginal flora etc, are not in balance, then the baby also has hurdles to cross even if it is vaginally born.

Where I was going with this thread, was that the mother's nutrition during pregnancy and before, has a huge impact, not just on the correct DNA replications in utero, but how that operates afterwards. If you look at pregnancy as the "one-go"... "building of the computer".... if something is done wrong during the building, it's very hard to put it right. For instance, a lack of folic acid, results in DNA replicating badly in utero, like a bad photocopy. As the child grows, those mistakes amplify, and considerably increase the child's changes of developing cancer in childhood. And that's a two fold thing. A mother who doesn't feed herself properly and is folic acid deficient in pregnancy, is not as likely to feed her children properly either, so they will have compounded nutritional deficiencies as they grow up, which further messes up gene expression.

Some might say that cancer is "genetic". I disagree. Bad nutrition affects gene expression and bad habits are handed down from generation to generation, so naturally, if there is an inherent weakness in gene expression, cancer is seen as "genetic" when in fact, it's a result of "learned" behaviour.

Birth is important, yes, but if you study "nutrition in utero", it has huge impacts right into that child's old age, let alone childhood, quite outside of birth....

What I want to put up here over time, is the growing body of literature which show that.

[Janet]

Birth is important, yes, but if you study "nutrition in utero", it has huge impacts right into that child's old age, let alone childhood, quite outside of birth....
Absolutely vital. In this current medicalised climate though we also need the rest of the information. I see too many women who have done long involved admirable periods of pre-conception (even women who will abort if they find themselves pregnant without having done pre-conception work), eat beautifully and mindfully throughout pregnancy, do pregnancy yoga and are more limber at 40 weeks than most yogis and yet they hire surgeons and end up with their minds, bodies, souls trashed and their babies severely compromised. So yes, nutrition but nowadays we must contextualise that and go further with the information we provide around pregnancy. Most of us don't even know there are models of care from which to choose, let alone how far the risks of the medical model have made birth dangerous. We don't have much hope of longterm health in other ways if our mother suicides from PTSD when we're babies, and many of us who have been through that experience are suicidal at certain points in the aftermath. We need to think about the impact of emotional distress on health too.

I love the nutritional information partly because it also puts the reality back into crap spun to us about how nothing can prevent or manage pre-eclampsia, gestational diabetes or obstetric cholestasis. The other more indepth information you're providing is also beautiful and I will be incorporating it into my work! So thanks! :)

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

This is my fault. I probably should have written a textual outline, because I know what's in my brain, and what's not. It's a topic that can fill a whole book.

I agree with what you are saying.

In my experience the biggest obstacles for mothers are a series of conditioned "Mindset Mountains" causing them to cruise in a conditioned bandwaggoning assuming that it will all work out...

But a mother who understands the importance of epigenetics, nutrition, how her own gut changes, and the differences those changes bring in the way she absorbs food during pregnancy and provides it to the fetus..., what happens when key hormones get over produced... how the baby reacts to them... etc, etc,,...... there are so many things that inter-tie.... Even down to how a mother thinks during pregnancy, and her attitudes to fear in general. What a mother does. How a mother moves. (that could sound loopy)

There is just so much to say, and knowing where to start was hard, so I decided to start at the easiest place to accept, which has a much more solid foundation -nutrition.

of course it's not everything. Epigenetics means how it all intermeshes together and provides a cohesive blue print when you bring it all together.

I could write a book on it... sigh...

I could write a word list but it would look meaningless.

In my experience, a mother who is "ready" in all ways, and has done the hard yards, doesn't usually go the medicalized way. But if, despite their best efforts, they have to, then they accept what happens without PTDS, because they know they did everything they possible could, that it wasn't their "fault" and move forward immediately, taking back control the minute they can.

They tend to be able to rationalise any gliches in the broader context..

I'm probably not making very good sense about this. :(

[Janet]

Yep all that. I agree. :) Like I said, thanks for the info, it's so great to add to the other info I use.

[Nirvana]

In my experience, a mother who is "ready" in all ways, and has done the hard yards, doesn't usually go the medicalized way. But if, despite their best efforts, they have to, then they accept what happens without PTDS, because they know they did everything they possible could, that it wasn't their "fault" and move forward immediately, taking back control the minute they can.

I totally agree with you here MT. Of course I had no idea about how the baby's gut is sterile at birth and then colonization takes place. I am truly fascinated with all the helpful links Serephina posted and the posts by Janet, Quickening. I am now able to comprehend why the birth circumstances are important too but I am also of the opinion that nutrition plays an equally important part.

How I would have loved to have a homebirth too but it just not a possibility. So I did what was in my hands. Took great care and control of my diet, exercises, yoga, spiritual books etc. I also felt I was in great control up until I delivered (I pushed when I wanted to etc) but the minute my baby was out I lost control. The hospital staff took over and I regret this deeply.

[Janet]

Many women have substandard experiences in hospitals. I'm sorry for yours.

[LovingMama]

Momtezuma, in your opinion, what foods do you think are most important in building a healthy child?

[ema-adama]

So, I am very interested in this. I am still wading my way through ideas on nutrition and have certainy got a ways to go before I feel comfortable with exactly what our diet is going to look like.

However, I am thinking that I would like to have a sibling for DS. And I am still breastfeeding - and my diet is not optimal. We have started with bone broths and we eat about 80-90% organic wholegrain fresh etc. I am wanting to start with fermented veggies and am trying to track down kefir grains.... this seems to be making the most sense to me at the moment when it comes to nutrition.

Anyway, I am not thinking of TTC in the next year - and I haven't even had a PP period yet. But I am wanting to get myself 'primed'.

I am also curious if anyone here has information on placenta accreta. I had a stunning home birth, attended by a gynae. I think that was my mistake - the gynae. Anyway, after 30 mins and no placenta I was jabbed and tugged on and eventually transferred to hospital where my placenta was removed surgically. I was told that it was a small piece that would not let go.

So, I have not had a ceasar, and an ultrasound by another gynae shows a healthy uterine wall with no scaring.

What could have caused the placenta to not come out? (I am suspecting it did not help to have hormones injected into the cord and into my thigh and to have him yanking on the cord) Is there any way that I can address this through something prenatal related?

[gilima]

I would also like to see more discussions on what things to do - and to avoid in the years after the birth - for those who didn't " get it right'
there are many out there....

with all the misinformation out and about nutrition.....I think today most people consume "low fat" and soy laden processed foods in the name of "healthy"......
I know that as a mother of 8 I work really hard at getting it right - but did fall short with 2 of my kids who have allergies,dental problems and had excema. I also fell for the vegetarian, soy line as a young adult and am still making amends....

[gilima]

I forgot to add that I agree that womeone who is planning a homebirth is more likely to be someone who thinks for themselves, takes more responsibility for their own health and therefore be more serious about good nutrition. This is not to exclude all women who don't give birth at home , since there are many that would like to and are unable due to reasons that are beyond their control.
more like someone who just goes along with everything that "the dr. says...." is not going to listen to her body - or read and research what older generations did etc; or even know where to get the REAL info...

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

So, I am very interested in this. I am still wading my way through ideas on nutrition and have certainy got a ways to go before I feel comfortable with exactly what our diet is going to look like. Eveyrone goes through this process. And not everything that looks exactly so, is exactly so. for instance there is a book called "The China Study" (http://www.amazon.com/China-Study-Comprehensive-Nutrition-Implications/dp/1932100385) which I have, which I think everyone should read. It has some good information, and some solid basic premises that can't be ignored. However, anyone with any knowledge, can see that to be truly successful, such a diet requires that all minerals and vitamins be balanced.

The thing he appears to miss is that China, as a country, has some serious mineral deficiencies, and he's not taken that into account that I can see... but the information is compelling in certain aspects.

He talks about cholesterol as if it's the B-all and end-all, yet fails to mention animal studies that show that animals can eat "fat" with impunity if they have enough B vitamins and minerals.

Yet, the basic premise of the China study, is right.. I believe. I just don't believe that diets should contain virtually zero animal products or animal fats.

Having said that it's a book that I think all intelligent mothers should own, and read and weigh up, alongside books like Nourishing Traditions etc...


However, I am thinking that I would like to have a sibling for DS. And I am still breastfeeding - and my diet is not optimal. We have started with bone broths and we eat about 80-90% organic wholegrain fresh etc. your next step is maximum fruit and vegetables, to increase the fibre bulk, because without that, good probiotics lack the right foot hold.
I am wanting to start with fermented veggies and am trying to track down kefir grains.... this seems to be making the most sense to me at the moment when it comes to nutrition.Bear in mind that fermented veggies etc, to begin with, can create what seems like havoc in the system. To digest these foods properly, might require levels of minerals and prebiotics you might not yet have. I'm just guessing here though. If you haven't got them, you can expect a lot of gas and stomach roiling.

I still get that if I overdose on brussel sprouts... I don't think I have quite enough sulphur to deal with it properly...


Anyway, I am not thinking of TTC in the next year - and I haven't even had a PP period yet. But I am wanting to get myself 'primed'. Sensible thinking.


I am also curious if anyone here has information on placenta accreta. I had a stunning home birth, attended by a gynae. I think that was my mistake - the gynae. Anyway, after 30 mins and no placenta I was jabbed and tugged on and eventually transferred to hospital where my placenta was removed surgically. I was told that it was a small piece that would not let go. That might not be correct. 30 minutes isn't an abnormally long time. Was the baby put to the breast straight away? Did they allow your body to use natural hormones to shrink the walls of the uterus and shear away the placenta?

Did they tell you about synto rebound where after the injection and initial contraction, you get rebound relaxation, where the uterus does nothing? I had the same thing with our first child, except when they pulled it out, they pulled out what might have been a bit of the womb lining. That resulted in extra bleeding, and some huge clots and rubbish which came out later. I was not a happy chappy. I believe that the placenta retention with the first one, was solely because they used the synto injection in the line when he came out. I refused the one in the bum so the huffy nurse just stuck it into the valve on the drip line :mad::mad:


So, I have not had a ceasar, and an ultrasound by another gynae shows a healthy uterine wall with no scaring. then perhaps, with no interference, no such condition might exist :D


What could have caused the placenta to not come out? (I am suspecting it did not help to have hormones injected into the cord and into my thigh and to have him yanking on the cord) Is there any way that I can address this through something prenatal related?I wouldn't worry about it. I'd consider it to be an aberation causes by the inability of a gyn to keep hands in pockets...

I would just make sure the baby goes straight to the breast once out and stays there. That's the way it's designed to work...:D There is no need for babies to be weighed bathed and all the other crap that even some homebirth midwives think is the right things to do in the first hour. Not that yours might have done that, but I've seen some homebirths which were almost glorified hospital births, and you wonder why women put up with that.

[deesalie]

As MT said... 30 minutes is not a long time (well it is in a hospital setting) to wait for a placenta. For some women it can be all of 10 minutes, for others it can take hours. The longest I've heard of has been 7 hours. You were more than likely transferred because of the over management by the gynae

[ema-adama]

Eveyrone goes through this process. And not everything that looks exactly so, is exactly so. for instance there is a book called "The China Study" (http://www.amazon.com/China-Study-Comprehensive-Nutrition-Implications/dp/1932100385) which I have, which I think everyone should read. It has some good information, and some solid basic premises that can't be ignored. However, anyone with any knowledge, can see that to be truly successful, such a diet requires that all minerals and vitamins be balanced.
I was about to buy this book a couple of month ago, and then read a review on amazon where someone had read the actual China Study, and he was saying that the author was skipping parts of the study that did not suit his hypothesis.... so I didn't buy it.... I also have a natural aversion to one size fits all approach


The thing he appears to miss is that China, as a country, has some serious mineral deficiencies, and he's not taken that into account that I can see... but the information is compelling in certain aspects.

He talks about cholesterol as if it's the B-all and end-all, yet fails to mention animal studies that show that animals can eat "fat" with impunity if they have enough B vitamins and minerals.I have a friend who is a TCM doctor who has this book and loves it. He is wanting to translate it into Hebrew he loves it that much. Maybe he will loan me the book


Yet, the basic premise of the China study, is right.. I believe. I just don't believe that diets should contain virtually zero animal products or animal fats.I like the idea of a side serving of animal product, rather than the main course....


Having said that it's a book that I think all intelligent mothers should own, and read and weigh up, alongside books like Nourishing Traditions etc...The thing I don't like about NT (haven't read the book, only reviews) is the heated animal fats bit. I had an aversion to frying in any fat - I just can't see this as healthful, and yet eggs fried in butter seems to be fairly popular :confused:


your next step is maximum fruit and vegetables, to increase the fibre bulk, because without that, good probiotics lack the right foot hold. Bear in mind that fermented veggies etc, to begin with, can create what seems like havoc in the system. To digest these foods properly, might require levels of minerals and prebiotics you might not yet have. I'm just guessing here though. If you haven't got them, you can expect a lot of gas and stomach roiling.My kefir grains just arrived - now I just need to rehydrate them. Although I have access to organic milk, it is pasteurised.... I need to get back to my huge daily salad with tehini, lemon juice, garlic and fresh herbs from the garden....


I still get that if I overdose on brussel sprouts... I don't think I have quite enough sulphur to deal with it properly...One day I hope to understand nutrion well enough to conclude that sulphur has anything to do with brussel sprouts - a firm favorire food of mine - one of my first foods and aparantly I goobled them down with gusto while my mums family looked on aghast as I turned my nose up at puddings made especially for me :giggle:


That might not be correct. 30 minutes isn't an abnormally long time. Was the baby put to the breast straight away? Did they allow your body to use natural hormones to shrink the walls of the uterus and shear away the placenta?It was a water birth and I had been pressurised to give birth - well, the gynae thought he was encouraging me by telling me he could feel the head and that I could too if I wanted to :rolleyes: I did not. I was so deeply emersed in giving birth that it just distracted me to have him and my doula interrupting like that. Anyway, I can't remember how we got out of the water or how long after the birth we got out.... I have seen photos of Hillel in a diaper on me... so I am guessing it was a glorified hospital birth :( Next time I will definitly be taking the babe right to my breast


Did they tell you about synto rebound where after the injection and initial contraction, you get rebound relaxation, where the uterus does nothing? I had the same thing with our first child, except when they pulled it out, they pulled out what might have been a bit of the womb lining. That resulted in extra bleeding, and some huge clots and rubbish which came out later. I was not a happy chappy. I believe that the placenta retention with the first one, was solely because they used the synto injection in the line when he came out. I refused the one in the bum so the huffy nurse just stuck it into the valve on the drip line :mad::mad:I got quite fiesty with the gynae as it hurt like hell to be pulled on like that. I think I managed to throw him away from me a couple of times - and he is a decent sized man. Huge clots were coming out all the way to the hospital..... grrrrr. Makes me so annoyed when I remember. Did you have a retained placenta the 2nd time around?


then perhaps, with no interference, no such condition might exist :D
I'm hoping.


I wouldn't worry about it. I'd consider it to be an aberation causes by the inability of a gyn to keep hands in pockets...This has been my guess..... but I worry.... I am a worrier at times


I would just make sure the baby goes straight to the breast once out and stays there. That's the way it's designed to work...:D There is no need for babies to be weighed bathed and all the other crap that even some homebirth midwives think is the right things to do in the first hour. Not that yours might have done that, but I've seen some homebirths which were almost glorified hospital births, and you wonder why women put up with that.I thought I had prepared so well for the birth and I really had an amazing 1st and 2nd stage (barring the pressure to push him out already). I had never thought the 3rd stage would not happen smoothly... live and learn. Now I know a lot more about the 3rd stage of labour and will not be bullied again.


As MT said... 30 minutes is not a long time (well it is in a hospital setting) to wait for a placenta. For some women it can be all of 10 minutes, for others it can take hours. The longest I've heard of has been 7 hours. You were more than likely transferred because of the over management by the gynae
Yes - This is what I have been reading - that if there is no haemorrhaging - no need to get all excited by the amount of time elapsed. And I am sure I was not haemorrhaging as I did not need any units of blood when I arrived at the hospital. :confused:

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Momtezuma, in your opinion, what foods do you think are most important in building a healthy child? I don't know how I missed this, because I usually click new posts.

Maybe we can start a new thread on this at some time.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Re "The China Study"
I was about to buy this book a couple of month ago, and then read a review on amazon where someone had read the actual China Study, and he was saying that the author was skipping parts of the study that did not suit his hypothesis.... so I didn't buy it.... I also have a natural aversion to one size fits all approachSo do I, but this book covers work which is the most extensive nutritional study ever done, so in that sense it's interesting.

If you are used to asking questions, being skeptical, and taking stuff apart analytically, it's very useful... it challenges thinking. Where you disagree, you ask yourself, "Why do I disagree? What else could he have missed or overlooked?" Pulling something apart can be very constructive. I think you can get out of it, some pretty good stuff.

(The talk I did for doctors the other night, was all their own literature, but my "take" on the bigger picture, is not the conclusions of the full texts. But I gave them all the full texts so that they could do their own analysis on my logic and my position.)


I like the idea of a side serving of animal product, rather than the main course.... To me, Romano is purely there to have as finely grated flavouring in my cabbage salad :D


The thing I don't like about NT (haven't read the book, only reviews) is the heated animal fats bit. I had an aversion to frying in any fat - I just can't see this as healthful, and yet eggs fried in butter seems to be fairly popular :confused: I don't fry. I'm lazy. Things go in pretty much as they are. I'll chop, grate, and maybe dry roast, but not usually fry, UNLESS i'm using beef shin, or cross cut blade for a stew, and then the quick seal is done in butter. But I'd only do about three of those a year, if that...


My kefir grains just arrived - now I just need to rehydrate them. Okay, it will take the kefir about 6 - 8 weeks to get comfortable, settle in, and start to flourish really well. It doesn't matter if the milk is pasteurised. It gobbles it up all the same. Also, if your milk is seasonal, and they use turnips or kale in the winter, the kefir may flip it's lid and behave all funny. maybe we should do a kefir thread sometime.


I need to get back to my huge daily salad with tehini, lemon juice, garlic and fresh herbs from the garden.... Toss in olive oil too :D


One day I hope to understand nutrion well enough to conclude that sulphur has anything to do with brussel sprouts - a firm favorire food of mine - one of my first foods and aparantly I goobled them down with gusto while my mums family looked on aghast as I turned my nose up at puddings made especially for me :giggle:One day you will. I'm still the only one in the family who loves brussel sprouts. How to clear the house out. Steam brussel sprouts. Everyone disappears... :giggle:


It was a water birth and I had been pressurised to give birth - well, the gynae thought he was encouraging me by telling me he could feel the head and that I could too if I wanted to :rolleyes: I did not. I was so deeply emersed in giving birth that it just distracted me to have him and my doula interrupting like that.

Rule number one. If the doula and gyn disrupt or annoy you, send them out the room :eek: Yup. I mean it. I've done that at least three times during labour support when staff have driven my friends round the bend. I've literally taken them out, shut the door and said to them, "Are you blind or something? Can't you see you are driving X nuts? now stay out here until you've got your heads sorted and when you come back, concentrate on the mother's needs not your own egos..." Slam.

I actually permanently fired one midwife who was so negative she literaly stopped the labour of my best friend, and it took me nearly an hour to get it going again. :o fortunately the back up one wasn't far away...


Anyway, I can't remember how we got out of the water or how long after the birth we got out.... I have seen photos of Hillel in a diaper on me... so I am guessing it was a glorified hospital birth :( Next time I will definitly be taking the babe right to my breastand don't let go of him :D


I got quite fiesty with the gynae as it hurt like hell to be pulled on like that. I think I managed to throw him away from me a couple of times - and he is a decent sized man. Huge clots were coming out all the way to the hospital..... grrrrr. Makes me so annoyed when I remember. Did you have a retained placenta the 2nd time around?

No, but I did haemorrhage the second time, because the placenta was over the same place as the first one, and was huge, weighing around 1200 grams. but that was okay, because my hb was 145, and the day after birth it was 104, so I'd not lost too much. My blood pressure just crashed for a day before picking up again.


This has been my guess..... but I worry.... I am a worrier at timesworry doesn't do anything positive for your brain does it? :cool:


I thought I had prepared so well for the birth and I really had an amazing 1st and 2nd stage (barring the pressure to push him out already). I had never thought the 3rd stage would not happen smoothly... live and learn. Now I know a lot more about the 3rd stage of labour and will not be bullied again.good. :D



Yes - This is what I have been reading - that if there is no haemorrhaging - no need to get all excited by the amount of time elapsed. And I am sure I was not haemorrhaging as I did not need any units of blood when I arrived at the hospital. :confused:the midwife used homeopathic Secale for my haemorrhaging and "the tap" turned off within 30 seconds. I got riled at the doc for not using the needle in the bum and he just calmly said, "If I'd used the needle in the bum it would have taken two minutes, and then you could have had rebound bleeding." So all in all, it was okay.

part of the problem was that our younger son had shoulder dystocia, got jammed and I had to push him out really .. um violently. He came out like a cork out of a bottle. (I split my diaphragm and gave myself a backside full of haemorrhoids) He was yelling his head off by the time they brought him to me, and it took them about 10 minutes to settle him down, to the point where he would attach and that was 10 wasted minutes. I think if he'd attached early, my uterus would have clamped down sooner...

However, it was a much better birth than the first, and in the context of the issues surrounding it, I was satisfied with most of the outcome...

[ema-adama]

Re "The China Study" So do I, but this book covers work which is the most extensive nutritional study ever done, so in that sense it's interesting.
Maybe I will actually get around to reading it - although I am thinking that by the time I have a handle on all the issues I'll be a grandmother :giggle:and no longer TTC


If you are used to asking questions, being skeptical, and taking stuff apart analytically, it's very useful... it challenges thinking. Where you disagree, you ask yourself, "Why do I disagree? What else could he have missed or overlooked?" Pulling something apart can be very constructive. I think you can get out of it, some pretty good stuff.This take a LOT of energy and time for me to do... not grumbling, but a nursing mum with a toddler has only so much time. I really wish I had started looking into health beyond staying away from drugs at a much earlier point in my life.


(The talk I did for doctors the other night, was all their own literature, but my "take" on the bigger picture, is not the conclusions of the full texts. But I gave them all the full texts so that they could do their own analysis on my logic and my position.)OT - but I have been meaning to ask how that went.


Okay, it will take the kefir about 6 - 8 weeks to get comfortable, settle in, and start to flourish really well. It doesn't matter if the milk is pasteurised. It gobbles it up all the same. Also, if your milk is seasonal, and they use turnips or kale in the winter, the kefir may flip it's lid and behave all funny. maybe we should do a kefir thread sometime.I need to buy some milk and then I am starting - maybe I'll start a kefir thread?


Toss in olive oil too :DThis is where I am confused.... I was adding olive oil, and then my friend who eats macrobiotically suggested not mixing different fats/oils.... and got me all confused. I have not had the time to look into this more closely, but she seemed to think or tehini or olive oil in salad :confused:



Rule number one. If the doula and gyn disrupt or annoy you, send them out the room :eek: Yup. I mean it. I've done that at least three times during labour support when staff have driven my friends round the bend. I've literally taken them out, shut the door and said to them, "Are you blind or something? Can't you see you are driving X nuts? now stay out here until you've got your heads sorted and when you come back, concentrate on the mother's needs not your own egos..." Slam.I think the next time we will be chosing our care provider and birthing environment with our needs in mind and not the fear of 'what if?' Of course IL's will have kittens over this :giggle:Although I have come a long way in giving a rats ass what they think.

Thanks for sharing your birth story and the details around it. Somehow it comforts me

So back to the original question.
I am wondering if I am covering my bases as a nursing mother who plans TTC by eating a mostly plant based diet with local organic fruit and vegetables (although not all the fruit is organic - I do have budgetary constraints :o), daily walks outside, fresh herbs and spices, some chicken soup/stock every day from organic chickens, and the odd pizza and of course kefir that I will be starting. I am thinking of cutting down on all carbs - although breakfast won't be breakfast without oat prridge - and wondering about supplementing.... supplements truley have my head spinning. I have been reading up about iodine and am just more confused than ever.... I feel that I have the potential to be far too theoretical about this. I long for a simple life :o

A big part of me wonders how it could be that complicated if I use common sense and stick to basic good nutrition without too much theory. My problem I guess is that I am still trying to find my common sense gage. I wonder if a toxic lifestyle makes more demands and hence the need for supplements....

Where do you start when it comes to covering your bases? Like what are the glaringly obvious things that could be ignored and shouldn't - if such an answer exists?

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

I was adding olive oil, and then my friend who eats macrobiotically suggested not mixing different fats/oils.... and got me all confused. I have not had the time to look into this more closely, but she seemed to think or tehini or olive oil in salad :confused: I think the traditional diet of your ancestors has a lot to tell you about what works. And that will be slightly different for all of us.


I am wondering if I am covering my bases as a nursing mother who plans TTC by eating a mostly plant based diet with local organic fruit and vegetables (although not all the fruit is organic - I do have budgetary constraints :o), daily walks outside, fresh herbs and spices, some chicken soup/stock every day from organic chickens, and the odd pizza and of course kefir that I will be starting. I am thinking of cutting down on all carbs - although breakfast won't be breakfast without oat prridge It is not possible to cut down on carbs because a lot of the vegetables we eat are carbs.


- and wondering about supplementing.... supplements truley have my head spinning. I have been reading up about iodine and am just more confused than ever.... I feel that I have the potential to be far too theoretical about this. I long for a simple life :o And that is the key because when you start juggling theories and being blown from one thing to another, then the stress undermines everything else you are doing. Solid, simple, natural and stress free will give you the best results.


A big part of me wonders how it could be that complicated if I use common sense and stick to basic good nutrition without too much theory. It won't be too complication. I totally agree. Cover as many natural food bases as possible, and enjoy every mouth full.


My problem I guess is that I am still trying to find my common sense gage. I wonder if a toxic lifestyle makes more demands and hence the need for supplements.... Yes, it does, and the primary one is vitamin C, but also, you need to take into account minerals. How many people know that a hollow stem in broccoli for instance, is usually boron deficiency?


Where do you start when it comes to covering your bases? Like what are the glaringly obvious things that could be ignored and shouldn't - if such an answer exists?I start by looking at what was done in the past; what worked; what didn't, how food should be grown etc.

I didn't start thinking about all this until I had children either. Having children was what drove me to be more analytical and want to know why....

It helped that I had a father who was this way inclined, so was semi-emersed in this as a child. it helped that my food choices were relatively sane, right from the start, though I think I've always eaten too much dairy, and am cutting back on that now.

It was precisely because the children had minor problems like eczema after they were born, that I realised that my past was catching up on me, and I had to change things, or else.

[ema-adama]

I think the traditional diet of your ancestors has a lot to tell you about what works. And that will be slightly different for all of us.

This makes sense

It is not possible to cut down on carbs because a lot of the vegetables we eat are carbs.
yes, I was more thinking of cutting down on grains for a while and see if that eases bloated tummy issues


And that is the key because when you start juggling theories and being blown from one thing to another, then the stress undermines everything else you are doing. Solid, simple, natural and stress free will give you the best results.
Again, makes sense..... one day I'll maybe understand they why's.....:cool:


Yes, it does, and the primary one is vitamin C, but also, you need to take into account minerals. How many people know that a hollow stem in broccoli for instance, is usually boron deficiency?
Not many, I am sure.


I start by looking at what was done in the past; what worked; what didn't, how food should be grown etc.
This is what gets me slightly nervous - as I grow only the smallest amount of food, more as a hobby than anything, and I am sure even if the food is organic, it doesn't mean it is as nutrient dense as it could be.... bu then I start worrying - and that is not good :alien:


It helped that I had a father who was this way inclined, so was semi-emersed in this as a child. it helped that my food choices were relatively sane, right from the start, though I think I've always eaten too much dairy, and am cutting back on that now.
I grew up on biodynamically grown food and whole grains etc. It was only when I moved to Israel (5 years ago) that I discovered eating tons of white flour products, fried foods and lots of sweets. And they were all so yummy. I have been working to cut it all out of our diets - and DH has been really supportive about making healthier choices even when they take him away from his comfort foods/childhood foods. People think that my diet is so healthy :giggle: and maybe it is compared to the average diet here aorund me (diet soda, icecream, bread, chease with lots of creamy sauces and oh, about 90%processed food.) - but I think I need to relax about food. ;)


It was precisely because the children had minor problems like eczema after they were born, that I realised that my past was catching up on me, and I had to change things, or else.
I sometimes worry about this too..... what I have passed on to my son through my poor eating habits and mercury fillings and living in a city (although before we got pregnant, our diet was already much improved)..... again, working on not worrying :giggle:umhmmm. I might get there one day

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

You can undo what is done, by simply doing better every day. :D But working on not worrying is the best thing.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

http://www.beyondveg.com/cat/diet-bios/index.shtml

[TanyaL]

But a mother who understands the importance of epigenetics, nutrition, how her own gut changes, and the differences those changes bring in the way she absorbs food during pregnancy and provides it to the fetus..., what happens when key hormones get over produced... how the baby reacts to them... etc, etc,,...... there are so many things that inter-tie.... Even down to how a mother thinks during pregnancy, and her attitudes to fear in general. What a mother does. How a mother moves. (that could sound loopy)

There is just so much to say, and knowing where to start was hard, so I decided to start at the easiest place to accept, which has a much more solid foundation -nutrition.

of course it's not everything. Epigenetics means how it all intermeshes together and provides a cohesive blue print when you bring it all together.

I could write a book on it... sigh...


In terms of epigenetics, what do we do for our kids already born? Mine both had pretty crappy beginnings, I didn't realize how messed up my health was. I can work to fix the many nutrient deficiencies and deal with their toxic load, which is intertwined with our nutrient issues and the cause of everything, but how much can be changed now?

And one interrelated thing, and maybe the question isn't even answerable, but how can we tell what's permanent and what's modifiable? It seems like some of the epigenetic effects we see are nutrient needs that are higher (or lower?) than they'd otherwise be. Each of my kids has one nutrient I've seen that they seem to need more of than seems typical--and one is more than foods provide. I don't know how this fits in, and I'm not sure where to read more to find out.



your next step is maximum fruit and vegetables, to increase the fibre bulk, because without that, good probiotics lack the right foot hold. Bear in mind that fermented veggies etc, to begin with, can create what seems like havoc in the system. To digest these foods properly, might require levels of minerals and prebiotics you might not yet have. I'm just guessing here though. If you haven't got them, you can expect a lot of gas and stomach roiling.



I always thought that digestive reactions to fermented foods were just caused by crowding out of the bad bacteria as the environment changes and the massive number of new bacteria are coming in. Is there something else going on, and could you talk about it a bit more?


I don't know how I missed this, because I usually click new posts.

Maybe we can start a new thread on this at some time.

I would be very interested, because the other half of this topic for me is the hope maybe, someday, to have more children, and for them to not have the obstacles to good health that my first two have. I don't think I'll set the bar unachieveably high, because they will be better off, and I don't need perfect, but the more I know, the better off we'll all be.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Everything. just because we are born, doesn't mean epigenetics stops right there. it can be modulated, or reversed. when it comes to epigentic effects on genes, that is a continuum, not set in concrete. You can't tell which is permanent or modifiable. if you are doing the right things, then what can be changed will be changed.

I need more magnesium than normal. I don't know why. I just know that I do.

If good bacteria don't have the right substrate to live on, then it's hard to get them to stick around in large enough numbers to do the job. What they live on, is dependant on what you eat. Therefore, you've got to provide the environment for them to "stick" and "stay". Without providing that, you are wasting your time.

Nothing is an obstacle. If you get it right, then the future will be better, and if you get it right, then anything caused by epigenetic flipping of a genes function in the past can be modulated or reversed. But there is no manual to tell you how. That you have to figure out from common sense, research, trial and error. And like all of us, you will make errors... :D

[TanyaL]

And like all of us, you will make errors... :D
:LMAO: No joke!

[gilima]

:LMAO: No joke!




you can say that again:giggle:

[gilima]

o.k.
can we discuss the book, the china study....
Granted, I didn't read the whole book, I read parts and skimmed other parts....
firstly in my opinion, he ignores other stuff and focuses mainly on animal fat and protein, he quotes other people's studies too, of which I don't know whether they are credible or not and he pretty much preaches veganism.
I have no doubt that eating mostly vegetables is a good way to get most of the vitamins and minerals but we NEED some animal fat and protein and some need it more than others.
I was a vegetarian through 2 of my pregnancies earlier on in my mothering career and I did not do so well till I started adding some fats and animal/fish protein, so that's my personal experience.

What about the fact that most of the fats and animal protein that is consumed here in the west is highly processed and ......somewhat toxic....as in pasturized/homgenized milk from cows fed antibiotics and raised on corn.
cheeses with preservatives, meats the same, fish from farms where the fish are artificially fed and also laden with antibiotics etc; and what about the fact that most people eat processed fast foods and consume no naturally fermented foods as they do in china?
just a few things to ponder.....
please chime in and fill in the gaps for me

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

I'd have to do a quick skim through to be able to talk "through my mouth" about The China Study.

It does not have all the answers. Right now, in order to sort out my own issues, I'm reading "going against the grain", and the hunter/gatherer diet makes more sense to me.

However, man cannot live by bread alone, and to me, there are other core issues which simply can't be addressed by seeing food as the only answer. The problem is, that discussion of those things is highly polarising, and I can't see how to discuss them, without causing unintentional upset...