Toddler dies of meningitis 24 hours after hospital sends her home with a bottle of paracetamol

[cartersmom]

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/Toddler-dies-of-meningitis-24.5986528.jp

so horrible :(

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

This so infuriates me, and parents must learn that if one hospital tosses you out with a drug which could seriously compromise a child's health, you go down the road to another hospital...


as for the doctors, what a bunch of.... wallies. :stars: :bh: :smash: :monkeyflip: :soapbox: :horse:

:baa:

[ZGT Mummy]

This breaks my heart. Especially because before learning what I have in the last year, I would've been the same as these parents and just accepted what the "god" doctors told me and gone home. And it would've been my child who died. I am so very grateful that I was never in a situation to need care like this and at least now if, God forbid, one of my kids is terribly ill I will have a bit more of a clue!

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Many preventable medical errors are hidden under the heading, "What the parents don't know, they can't worry about..."

[MinorityView]

The bitter part is that parents have to live with the consequences. Only doctors with a conscience have to live with the consequences of THEIR mistakes.

[ZGT Mummy]

The bitter part is that parents have to live with the consequences. Only doctors with a conscience have to live with the consequences of THEIR mistakes.

Are there any left in mainstream medicine? The stories I've heard over the last year lead me to think not.

[MinorityView]

Few, very few.

Back a number of years, I read a book by a doctor who talked about his life in medicine and honestly described some of his mistakes. Two that weighed on him heavily:

saving the life of an elderly man in a nursing home who had pneumonia...the man lived on for years, fully conscious, hardly able to move, in considerable pain.

mistakenly destroying a wanted pregnancy by doing the wrong medical procedure.

The point of the book was that he quit his regular medical practice, moved to a slum area of a big city and, with a group of other medical professionals started running a clinic for the poorest of the poor. One of the things he liked was that it was run as something of a cooperative, where the staff all had a voice, not just the medical professionals, and where the pay levels were not skewed to provide big bucks to the doctors and pennies to the rest.

But I think he was a rare sort.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Does librarian extraordinaire remember the title?

Yes, ZGT, there are some. But they are increasingly a disjointed "fit" within the system.

The system hates them, and hounds them, and they stay, uncomfortably, knowing that if they go, their patients are at the mercy of pharmaceutical handmaidens.

[MinorityView]

No, alas, I don't remember the title. If I remember enough details to do an effective search, I'll look for it.

I tried and found this book, which is relevant to the discussion! but not the one I was thinking of:
http://www.amazon.com/Doctor-Healer-Transformative-Journey/dp/0813525209/ref=sr_1_18?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1263698719&sr=1-18

[Quickening]

This so infuriates me, and parents must learn that if one hospital tosses you out with a drug which could seriously compromise a child's health, you go down the road to another hospital...

Realistically, how many parents out there know paracetamol has risks? It is a really small minority that know the risks.

The heading of the article caught my eye. I wonder if I was given panadol when I had meningitis. Apparently it got bad suddenly and then I was taken to hospital. I bet the typical treatment back then would be to give panadol!

[Seaweed]

Realistically, how many parents out there know paracetamol has risks? It is a really small minority that know the risks. Actually this is true. Even the non vaccinating alternative type ppl I know still use it. Not as requently as more mainstream people but I am the only person I know IRL who won't touch the stuff & has kids who have never had it.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

all my friends, and my kids know, because they've had 'the lecture'. What they do though is their business, and I don't ask.

[gilima]

Actually this is true. Even the non vaccinating alternative type ppl I know still use it. Even my non vaxing friend who researches everything. Not as frequently as more mainstream people but I am the only person I know IRL who won't touch the stuff & has kids who have never had it.

I have to agree. I have friends who do late or select vaxing and don't hesitate to use tylenol ( paracetamol) for fever etc; I actually had a friend ask me on Saturday which one I would recommend for fever ( her 16 month old had fever and we were visiting with them) motrin or tylenol?........this is someone who has delayed vaxing her kids and they were all born in a free standing birth center with a midwife. So not someone who just follows the herd, she did not accept my explanation and felt it is not right to deny her child the comfort and relief from fever that paracetamol will bring.

[Seaweed]

all my friends, and my kids know, because they've had 'the lecture'. What they do though is their business, and I don't ask. I've actively avoided the stuff for well over 20 years now. But it is a good illustration of how to have something really very harmful accepted as a mainstream benign - even beneficial - product. CocaCola is another good example.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

I have to agree. I have friends who do late or select vaxing and don't hesitate to use tylenol ( paracetamol) for fever etc; I actually had a friend ask me on Saturday which one I would recommend for fever ( her 16 month old had fever and we were visiting with them) motrin or tylenol?........this is someone who has delayed vaxing her kids and they were all born in a free standing birth center with a midwife. So not someone who just follows the herd, she did not accept my explanation and felt it is not right to deny her child the comfort and relief from fever that paracetamol will bring.

I don't explain anything. I dump two clearfiles on their laps and say something along the lines of , "Here are the medical articles explaining why a fever is the most front line beneficial aspect of the immune system which should NOT be doused with paracetamol, and here is the file which shows how paracetamol and other products damage the immune system both short and long term, as well as increase the likelihood of the infection becoming more serious if you hadn't used it. it's up to you to read these, and then make an informed choice.

If you chose to use these products, and long term, it creates problems for you, that's your choice, and your problem, because the doctor sure isn't going to put the bits back together for you."

I don't usually say, but I guess it's implied ... and don't come running to me to fix it up either....

By putting clearfiles in their lap, it's not my opinion, or explanation, but the medical literature doing the talking.

If they ask, "Why hasn't the doctor told me this?" I reply, "Why don't you ask your doctor that question?"

[cartersmom]

I don't explain anything. I dump two clearfiles on their laps and say something along the lines of , "Here are the medical articles explaining why a fever is the most front line beneficial aspect of the immune system which should NOT be doused with paracetamol, and here is the file which shows how paracetamol and other products damage the immune system both short and long term, as well as increase the likelihood of the infection becoming more serious if you hadn't used it. it's up to you to read these, and then make an informed choice.

If you chose to use these products, and long term, it creates problems for you, that's your choice, and your problem, because the doctor sure isn't going to put the bits back together for you."

I don't usually say, but I guess it's implied ... and don't come running to me to fix it up either....

By putting clearfiles in their lap, it's not my opinion, or explanation, but the medical literature doing the talking.

If they ask, "Why hasn't the doctor told me this?" I reply, "Why don't you ask your doctor that question?"

Isn't it usually because the doctor has no clue???

As for this little girl, had they not given her the tylenol and taken her to another hospital, but told a similar story (it's nothing go home and give her tylenol) what's a parent to do? There are 3 hospitals near me and I would go to every one demanding someone listen to me, but what if they don't??????? seriously what is a parent to do in that situation because I can imagine that is not so far fetched a scenario

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Ah but most people assume the doctor knows what he's talking about. So it's much more effective to let the person think that the doctor "should" know all that, and then find out that they don't.

It's unlikely the same thing would happen in a second hospital if parents go in and say, "We don't believe what they said, and we're not leaving here, until you've done a proper workup".

That wouldn't have happened in my situation, because I know enough to take on any doctor first round.

What any parent should do is listen to their instincts and refuse to budge. After all, if their instincts are right, no matter what the hospital tries to do to the parent a child coming down with meningitis in the face of trying to toss parents out, call the police or whatever other crap they throw, would look very bad.

Parents need to learn to not wimp out. Find a backbone, stand their ground, and refuse to be fobbed off. That is the ultimate "right" of a parent.

[Spy]

There was an Australian story not too long ago about a child dying rejected by a few hospitals with similar 'take paracetamol and go home' rubbish, ending up with 'croup' where MT and I strongly suspected diphtheria or similar, but nothing was tested for.

I also agree that it is fundamentally up to the parents to beat the doctors into submission when it comes to it. It is one thing to roll up saying 'there is something wrong with our child and we are worried', but it is a completely different thing to roll up saying 'we suspect such and such condition based on such and such evidence and we need such and such tests done ASAP'. To a point, in the second case denial would involve a lot more recordable professional misconduct than in the first case, where all the parents are really asking for (out loud) is a pat on the shoulder and paracetamol, well within their 'standard of care'...

[Seaweed]

I did hear an anecdote from someone I know who knew someone ie it could have become more dramatic in the telling. Apparently their 3 year old died in an a&e cubicle while they were outside arguing with the doctor that something really was wrong with their child.


it is a completely different thing to roll up saying 'we suspect such and such condition based on such and such evidence and we need such and such tests done ASAP' The problem with this is you need to be incredibly up on what goes on to know this sort of stuff. By that I mean which tests, sometimes even the exact thing which is wrong. This is where I think it is important to have at least a good basic functioning knowledge of A&P so you can work out what you think could be wrong where. Good observation skills of your child are also a must. Also, as MT said, a backbone & an ability not to back down when you know you are right.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Trusting your instincts is fundamental. if you "know" you instincts are right, even if you can't quantify 'what', you stay and fight however, your instincts lead you. You don't need to know specifics down to the enth degree. You just need to abide by the "hell hath no fury than a parent scorned" motto.

[ema-adama]

Isn't it usually because the doctor has no clue???

As for this little girl, had they not given her the tylenol and taken her to another hospital, but told a similar story (it's nothing go home and give her tylenol) what's a parent to do? There are 3 hospitals near me and I would go to every one demanding someone listen to me, but what if they don't??????? seriously what is a parent to do in that situation because I can imagine that is not so far fetched a scenario

I worry about this sometimes. So far I have not needed emergency care. Although I know the chances are pretty slim that I'll get through motherhood without one visit to the ER. I worked at one of the biggest hospitals here. I know just how well patient rights are respected (read, Not!) That was basically one of my pressing reasons why I wouldn't birth in a hospital. I knew the second I put foot in I was the property of the hospital and the best practice protocols of that hospital. I do worry about doctors following protocol and missing important information in front of their eyes. I really distrust the medical profession. Which really depresses me.


I did hear an anecdote from someone I know who knew someone ie it could have become more dramatic in the telling. Apparently their 3 year old died in an a&e cubicle while they were outside arguing with the doctor that something really was wrong with their child.

The problem with this is you need to be incredibly up on what goes on to know this sort of stuff. By that I mean which tests, sometimes even the exact thing which is wrong. This is where I think it is important to have at least a good basic functioning knowledge of A&P so you can work out what you think could be wrong where. Good observation skills of your child are also a must. Also, as MT said, a backbone & an ability not to back down when you know you are right.
I would not have a clue what tests to ask for. I have yet to be in a position where I am fearing for my child's health or life, so I have no idea how I will react under the pressure. But I worry that I will not know what needs to be done and I do not trust the medical team to necessarily know either.

A&P - anatomy and physiology?

[Seaweed]

A&P - anatomy and physiology? yes it is.

[Spy]

Although I know the chances are pretty slim that I'll get through motherhood without one visit to the ER.

Why is that? I would say, unless you go through all the wonders of mainstream medical system with a healthy child, chances to avoid ER are better than average :)

[Seaweed]

We mountain bike & horse ride so it is in the realms of possibility we will end up there but it would be more for something structural like a broken bone. We've failed miserably to be hospitalised for any of the VPDs we have had so far ;)

[MinorityView]

Hey, come on Seaweed, those are dangerous diseases! Get with the program.


We mountain bike & horse ride so it is in the realms of possibility we will end up there but it would be more for something structural like a broken bone. We've failed miserably to be hospitalised for any of the VPDs we have had so far ;)

[Seaweed]

I know. Maybe we should take paracetemol before each outing so we have some pain relief on board in case of mishaps. Yikes! I wonder if anyone has studied that as a performance enhancer?

[ema-adama]

Why is that? I would say, unless you go through all the wonders of mainstream medical system with a healthy child, chances to avoid ER are better than average :)

I guess I am basing that on my children bike riding, climbing trees - living life. Stuff happens like broken bones, torn tendons or huge gashes that require stitches.

I do not think VPD require acute care. Obviously. I feel quite comfortable managing and monitoring DS through a VPD such as measles, mumps, whooping cough etc. Not bacterial meningitis. I know that if children are well fed and well rested and loved there is a smaller chance for them to get seriously sick, but it can happen. Healthy children do get sick and hurt.