electronic microscope /poliovirus...

[Fièvre]

I desperatly search this : when was the poliovirus first seen with an electronic microscope ?

I can't find any date...!

Is it because it is of no or limited use for scientists ? If it were so the social utility of a photograph is huge .Remember when the first photograph ( or was it a sketch ) of HIV was displaid in the newspapers !

I know some are making it an issue . Janine Roberts for instance points that despite the invention of the electronic microscope in 1932...but the e.m. just became usefull in 1946 if we are to believe this document of ...McGill ( http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:p7EPPsqrqqIJ:www.mcgill.ca/files/public-relations/killam_lecture_fr-2004.pdf+%22microscope+electronique%22+et+poliovir us&hl=fr&gl=fr&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESggUpEQtHBdUxWnaj1EyJYykXh-dkmOoeHhb7CxGltHJx0Xc9o2rcy5JPN02RAPJFtErnuBEt35OJ 3_9mXhxykReEqzP8UoscPf2iRRbYKz6Cj9ALpbq_CFXfcYBgmo lFVUQ6R7&sig=AHIEtbTHpPQH2ixf3kjcXoBOjeczH76wHw ) Where is is suggested that Salk might not have mastered the electronic microscope that well , even if he was to successfully developp the polio vaccine ......

An idea of the date of the first e.M. photo ?

[I came across a interview of Pr Duisberg ( feb 2009 ) concerning the HIV : he still stands to his point , HIV doesn't exist - but hasn't it been photographed ????]

[bbrandonsmom]

http://americanhistory.si.edu/polio/virusvaccine/livingchem.htm

Here's on of the electron microscope. I googled electronic microscope + polio and got a bunch of different links. I can sift through when I have a bit more time later.

[Fièvre]

Thanks bbrandonsmom,

I found
For decades, no one knew what poliovirus looked like, since viruses cannot be seen under a microscope. In 1985, a team led by James Hogle of Harvard Medical School obtained high-resolution, 3D images of poliovirus, and today, the newly formed Children's Hospital Boston -- Harvard Medical School structural biology unit is heir to the Enders tradition. Led by Stephen Harrison, this group is using a variety of sophisticated tools like X-ray crystallography and molecular electron microscopy to obtain detailed, dynamic, 3D views -- accurate down to the atom -- of how viruses move, transfer information and reconfigure themselves to attack their victims. These images are shedding light on many of today's viral scourges, such as HIV, dengue and rotavirus, and providing new leads for treatment and vaccine development. http://www.childrenshospital.org/research/Site2029/printerfriendlypageS2029P6sublevel7Flevel14.html

[Fièvre]

I had previously written :
I came across a interview of Pr Duisberg ( feb 2009 ) concerning the HIV : he still stands to his point , HIV doesn't exist - but hasn't it been photographed ????Which is an error :red: ....as one can check on his website http://www.duesberg.com/index.html .

His point is clearly expressed as "There is no proof that HIV causes AIDS"
He has instead proposed the hypothesis that the various American/European AIDS diseases are brought on by the long-term consumption of recreational drugs and/or AZT itself, which is prescribed to prevent or treat AIDS.
I shall say : it is hard for me to be convinced [ at this point of my -very meger- kwnoledge ] : what about contaminated blood scandal in France !!!???


With HIV/AIDS we are not that far from Polio . Let aside Edward Hooper's thesis ( http://www.aidsorigins.com/content/view/221/2/ ) ...
Intense mediation efforts by Jonas Salk (the scientist who developed the first polio vaccine) led to an internationalagreement signed by the scientists and their respective countries in 1987. Montagnier and Gallo agreed to be recognized as codiscoverers of the virus, and the two governments agreed that the profits of the HIV test be shared (mostgoing to a foundation for AIDS research) http://picardp1.mouchez.cnrs.fr/Luc-Montagnier.html

[Fièvre]

"It is important to understand that electron microscopy is of practically no use to demonstrate the pathogenicity of HIV or other viruses, however, when the preliminary question is to find out whether a virus is present or absent, EM is probably the best method we have available, especially if appropriate methods for virus concentration and purification are used. http://www.aliveandwell.org/html/a_closer_look/faq_doesexist.html ( Dr. Ettiene de Harven, the first scientist to isolate and produce an electron micrograph (photo) of a retrovirus, respond with expert technical information first. Dr. de Harven is Emeritus Professor of Pathology at the University of Toronto, and achieved the above mentioned isolation while serving as a researcher at Sloan Kettering Cancer Institute in New York. He is also a member of Alive & Well's Advisory Board. )

[Fièvre]

I stepped by this site, which does tackle the problem : http://www.neue-medizin.com/lanka2.htm . Again : I don't know what to think of it ! (Some others did know what to do : http://www.klein-klein-aktion.de/contents/Who_are_we/who_are_we.html )

The text dates back to 2001( minor changes on March 2, 2002)

I am wondering if James Hogle's invention hasn't denied this thesis yet ???

What has become of Stefan Lanka since then ?

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

I'm familiar with this debate.

people have to be careful though.

After all, some of these people who claim there is no such thing as a virus, often illogically claim that the fact that the polio vaccine had SV40 in it, proves it's dangerous. :bonk:

[MinorityView]

Oh. good point :)

[Fièvre]

Montezuma Tuatara wrote :
After all, some of these people who claim there is no such thing as a virus, often illogically claim that the fact that the polio vaccine had SV40 in it, proves it's dangerous.

Does seem a bit inconsistent , indeed !

[Fièvre]

On this very specific subject - i e microscopy - I found :
Historians of biology have recently focused on the development of new forms of
physico-chemical instrumentation in the 1930s and 1940s, and on the impact this
development had on virus studies (Creager, 2002; Creager & Gaudillie`re, 2001; Rasmussen,
1997; Rheinberger, 1995). New instruments triggered new practices, which
in turn changed accepted views about the nature of viruses and their relationship to
diseases. In a nutshell, the notion of viruses as small and invisible bacteria that
could induce specific diseases gradually faded away as the macromolecular viruses—
proteins or nucleoproteins that reproduced within cells, and which could be visualized
with the electron microscope or the analytical ultracentrifuge—became more
popular. The war’s scientific mobilization facilitated this process by making the new
molecular instrumentation more widely available and promoting new uses of the
ultracentrifuge and electron microscope. The research projects conducted by Wendell
Stanley at the Rockefeller Institute, and by Thomas Anderson at the Radio Corporation
of America (RCA) laboratories illustrate the central role played by a new generation
of complex physical artefacts in defining what good virus research was
(Creager, 2002; Rasmussen, 1997).....http://www.vjf.cnrs.fr/cermes/IMG/pdf_Gaudillierebiomed.pdf ( I was looking for explanations about : 1954 –Wendell Stanley (UC Berkeley) ‘crystalizes’ poliovirus )

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Really good, and interesting research Fievre :clap:

[Fièvre]

Thanks Montezuma Tuatara

Around this specific topic of microscopy / crystallization.see :



http://bancroft.berkeley.edu/Exhibits/Biotech/stanley.html
http://virologyhistory.wustl.edu/hogle.htm
http://virologyhistory.wustl.edu/rueckert.htm


1954 Wendell Stanley (UC Berkeley) ‘crystalizes’ poliovirus
Mahoney was crystallized by Finch and Klug in 1960
Roland Rueckert crystallized poliovirus by accident while post-docing with Wendall Stanley at Berkeley in 1964

it is not quite clear to me how all these data are related and how they are linked to the first micrograph which - as I have been told - should be dated to Samuel Dales (Virology 26, 379-389, 1965 ).

1965 !!!???? : seems very late !???


Another point : here (http://virologyhistory.wustl.edu/hogle.htm ) one can read :
Olen says polio is one of the most highly mutable of all the RNA viruses. The frequency of mutation is greater than for flu and or for any other RNA virus This point seems to me very important ...contradictory to what I had previously read on the high stability of the poliovirus that , up to now , had not mutated ??????

[Fièvre]

The first micrograph of polioviruses was produced in 1948/49 by DeRobertis and F. O. Schmidt . See : http://jem.rupress.org/cgi/content/abstract/90/4/283 http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,799172,00.html

By the way , concerning HIV : "Yet not a single HIV particle has ever been observed by electron microscopy in the blood of patients supposedly having a high viral load! So what? All the most important newspapers and magazine have displayed attractive computerized, colorful images of HIV that all originate from laboratory cell cultures, but never from even a single AIDS patient." ( http://www.whale.to/a/virus_mania1.html )

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

I don't know enough about the HIV issue to be able to comment on that.