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Japonica
05-04-10, 11:31 AM
And I've been re-reading the sections of MT's JALP and the stickies here...

I'm pretty positive my DS, who is 23 months and not vaxed, has pertussis. He started with the cold/runny nose about 10 days to 2 weeks ago and now we're on day 5 of the paroxysmal stage (yeah, I know, a long road ahead of us). I'm treating him with SA...I started at 375mg per kilo...spread out through the day...and now he's getting about 5g daily (he's 12.5kg) and he's pretty much to bowel tolerance with that dose. Not diarrhea but loose mush BMs. I also give him homemade herbal cough syrup (Aviva Jill Romm's recipe). So far, he's been doing okay. He's not bringing up a lot of mucus yet, but he's also not incapacitated by the coughing. The coughs sound pretty dry. He pretty much does his usual thing in between coughing fits. He's only whooped or gagged twice so far. Last night was the first time he was coughing consistently in the night. I gave him extra SA during the night and I also have the vaporizer going. I'm also giving him high vit CLO, multi with extra zinc, elderberry syrup (just to help as an immune builder).

I think he got it from my husband, not some other little kids. Hubby has had a "bronchitis" type cough for the past month or so that he never bothered seeing anyone for (not that a GP could do much anyway). My other child seems fine (I'm giving her extra SA just in case) and I had full blown pertussis in my teens, so I hope I have a bit of immunity left. Probably not a lot, but I feel fine (seeing as my DH has been coughing all over me for a month, I'm sure I would have caught it by now). Oh and DH had an adult booster (Tdap) in 2002 as part of a travel vaccine package when he was supposed to work in the Caribbean. So, he should have still been protected...but we know how well those pertussis vaccines work, right?

I'm hoping things go well...so far, so good. If we keep consistently using the SA to bowel tolerance, about how many days until we really turn a corner? I can see that it does work and his coughing is reduced in intensity and frequency with the attentive dosing. We're keeping him at home in a self-imposed quarantine. I posted on another forum (ahem) about our situation and got a bit of stick from someone already about not running off to the GP for abx. Hmm...some places seem to be getting a bit more mainstream all the time...lol.

Questions:
1) My other child has had a slight cough the past few weeks to a month. Nothing I would even call close to what my son currently has...hers was more in the morning, slight bit in the evening, no coughing at night, nothing much during the day. And the actual cough was different. I took her to the GP just to get it checked (at my husband's request) and he said it was just hayfever (!) after checking her sinuses and nothing to be done about it. So, I am giving her SA anyway and immune support but not treating her as if she has it...seeing as she's had the dry cough for a month now, wouldn't she be on the tail end of it if this was the case?

2) I had pertussis at 15. I was vaxed for it, but got it anyway, you know the old story. I know it was pertussis and not just some "chronic bronchitis" as the GP insisted because of the severity and duration of the cough. My GP refused to swab me knowing I was up to date on my vaxes. I was on three different types of antibiotics and prescription cough suppressants, and I recall for me, being in the lousy health I was in before getting sick, the illness lasted about 8 weeks. I've never known any bronchitis I'd previously had last for 8 weeks, not respond to any type of abx, and make me cough until I couldn't breathe, but anyway...I feel perfectly fine now. Everyone in my household is coughing in one way or another except me. Am I still contagious/carrying bacteria? Or can I at least go get the groceries etc.?

3) My husband wants to see his GP to see what he says. If it is pertussis (and I'm pretty sure it is, just based on his symptoms), is there any point at this stage? He's been coughing over a month now. He's taking SA, when he remembers, but is not consistent with it, typical guy...

OK, just found the answer to the last one...duh...can tell hubby not to bother...


Antibiotics are recommended in the initial catarrhal phase of infection when they are effective in eliminating B. pertussis from the nasopharynx and reducing the infectious period. However, after three weeks of coughing, antibiotics have no measurable effect on reducing the infectious period and are not recommended. Patients should avoid contact with susceptible individuals until at least five days of antibiotics have been taken.

http://www.australianprescriber.com/magazine/32/2/36/8/

I like how most sites say the only way to reduce adult pertussis is vaccination. Yet, DH is the only one in this house who is up to date on his vaxes and had the pertussis booster. Sheesh.

Momtezuma Tuatara
05-04-10, 01:36 PM
How quickly you "turn the corner" is kiddie dependant. There is no manual for this, and you just have to roll with it, and play it day by day.

In terms of your husband, if he or you go to the doctor you know what the story will be. And they will get the hounds out on you with all the usual clap-trap that goes with being part of the system, justifying their existence, and criminalising non vaccinators.

Stay away from them if you can possibly do so.

Japonica
05-04-10, 02:26 PM
Will do! ;) Yeah, I'm going to stay away as long as it's manageable here and as long as we're following the protocol, it should be...if he's kept at home, then there's no need for abx at this stage. It won't do anything to make him feel better (and in all likelihood, will just make him worse)...it's just the "feel good" thing to do to make others happier. But if he's kept in quarantine for the next 16 days (it's 21 days from start of coughing, right?) then they can't complain that he's out there spreading it.

Momtezuma Tuatara
06-04-10, 03:45 PM
You could always take the whole family up in an airplane...

Japonica
06-04-10, 09:27 PM
Yeah, I mentioned that to my hubby...he wasn't overly enthusiastic about it, but then he's not the one up with our little guy every night.

Today went really well, coughing tolerable, no gagging, retching or anything. We've hit bowel tolerance for sure with just under 5g. The poor guy has got scoury BMs and even the SA seems to be acidic enough to be giving him terrible nappy rash...I've been layering him up in rash cream. Anyway, tonight has been a different story...quite a few of the coughing until gagging episodes and now he's been screaming and pulling at his ear, so ear infection already? We'll be on day 7 of coughing tomorrow. Since this is our first go around with this and I haven't been treating our LOs for pertussis before, a small amount of fear is creeping in...I know antibiotics don't do diddly against ear infections anyway, but will it make a difference to him getting pneumonia? I know that's a huge jump and assumption, since the stats even for infants is only 10% develop pneumonia. Still, it's in the back of my mind.

ETA: well, he went to sleep fairly well and he's not coughing too much. I gave him 1g of SA with dinner, so I hope that's making a difference. Don't mind my pneumonia talk...I'm knackered after two nights of this and have weeks more to look forward to. The airplane is looking better all the time. So, what do I tell the pilot? 10,000 ft, 1 hr...don't mind the hacking kid and husband...LOL.

Momtezuma Tuatara
07-04-10, 04:56 PM
I'd be looking at some CLO and maybe oral vitamin K. You could back away from that dosage of SA, if he's got bottom scours. You'll soon know if it's not enough.

Read the whooping cough thread and revise how to make sure all that mucus is coming up. That's important too. Yeah, tired huh? Knackered more like. Learn to roll with it, and go on autopilot....

In terms of the plane charter, I wouldn't mention the fact that they are sick. Tell him/her what you want to do, and that you want to see your locality from that height. if they really want to know why, download the stuff from here, print it out and show it to them. Tell that that the doctor doesn't think it is pertussis, but you're not going to take that chance. Summit like that...

Japonica
08-04-10, 09:38 AM
Hi again!

Things have improved here...hitting that bowel tolerance mark for a few days makes a huge difference. We're into our second week and the whooping is gone, the gagging is gone. Now just an almost "normal" sounding deep cough (still paroxysmal) about 6-8 times an hour. He did have one of those evening coughing episodes last night (thankfully, no throwing up as in nights past), brought up some mucus, and then slept really well for the rest of the night. I'm tapering down his SA dose...he still had 6-7 loose BMs yesterday, poor kid. Otherwise, he's fine...running around, playing...the only other sign that anything is going on is how tired he gets...naps and bedtime are no problem anymore...

I can still hear he's congested though, so I'm going to work on him getting that stuff up.

I'm shaking my head in wonder that the SA makes such a huge difference...reading it is one thing but seeing the results first hand is another. I was rereading Wendy Lydall's chapter about the two months of puking with her child during their pertussis experience. Thank goodness that's not us. I can take a few more weeks of the way things are now, but the first days we had of whooping and vomiting, and him coughing every 2 minutes all night...no thanks...

Momtezuma Tuatara
09-04-10, 11:55 AM
Once you understand the way vitamin C works, you understand why it makes such a huge difference.

However, I guarantee you this. If you stand there, waggle a finger at him and give him a stiff telling off for something, he will start paroxysmal coughing.

No kidding. Seriosly :)

If you taper it off to fast, the coughing will intensify. it's now a balancing act...

gilima
10-04-10, 07:02 AM
wow, sounds like you are doing a really good job with the SA , I am happy to hear he is doing well :)

Japonica
11-04-10, 09:53 AM
Thanks! We're on day 12 of coughing here. Again, whooping gone, gagging and throwing up long gone, just the residual paroxysmal cough now and again. He's just fine. He seems to be clearing the mucus alright on his own too although he swallows it after he coughs it up (ugh). He has been sleeping through the nights since we reached bowel tolerance on the SA a while back. I decreased his dose to 3g a day from 5g and he's a happier camper :red: well, all of us are with less nappies to change. That dose seems to be working so far re: the coughing.

The hardest part at this stage is keeping him in as he feels fine, is playing like normal etc. I had to turn down a couple of play dates. Didn't tell the other parents why, just that he was sick.

Momtezuma Tuatara
11-04-10, 05:11 PM
That was our biggest problem too. Even when the kids had chickenpox - were were at a home schooling conference and banned from it, so spent the days walking. we covered about 20 kms a day with supposedly "sick" kids.

Japonica
12-04-10, 11:41 AM
No doubt! My DH wanted to bring our little guy to a restaurant yesterday and I had to remind him that he's still technically contagious, so that was a no go. We ended up playing in the park on our own.

cartersmom
13-04-10, 05:13 AM
No doubt! My DH wanted to bring our little guy to a restaurant yesterday and I had to remind him that he's still technically contagious, so that was a no go. We ended up playing in the park on our own.

When will he not be contagious?? Since you didn't do abx, (which is a good thing!) how do you know when it is "safe" to go out??

Japonica
13-04-10, 02:26 PM
I found a couple of sites that said 21 days from onset of coughing without abx and 5 days with abx. So, I'm going by their recommendations...


It is possible to be infectious (able to pass the infection to others) for a maximum of six weeks from when symptoms first start. For practical purposes, most people agree that after three weeks it is most unlikely to be passed on.
http://www.whoopingcough.net/how%20do%20you%20catch%20it.htm


Persons with pertussis are infectious from the beginning of the catarrhal stage through the third week after the onset of paroxysms or until 5 days after the start of effective antimicrobial treatment.
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/surv-manual/chpt10-pertussis.htm

So, obviously it could be longer than 3 weeks, but that's what's been reported as the "safe" window. I know another site said treatment with antibiotics (to prevent spread of the infection to others) was not even recommended after the third week of coughing, so again, they must deem it to be lower risk at that point.

Japonica
23-04-10, 03:29 PM
Okay, last update...10 days since my last entry. So, we're at about 6 weeks total since he was infected (week 4 of coughing). It's basically a non-event now. He coughs maybe once in the morning and once in the evening. And when he gets really upset (right about that one, Hilary). But aside from that, he's completely fine. No ear infection, no complications. Didn't need antibiotics. I've tapered down the SA so much that he's just getting a small maintenance dose. It's basically over and done with.

Momtezuma Tuatara
23-04-10, 03:44 PM
Sounds like the pattern my kids went through. Piece of cake, once you know what you're doing.