Vit D from the sun

[Seaweed]

I just wanted to talk about how much sun we need at this time of year to make vit D. And also how easy it is to wash off. My understanding is we need to be out between 12 and 2 at our latitude to get vit D from the sun in winter. Since it is relatively chilly here unless you really are running around, most of it will be on the face and maybe hands. Both of which get washed alot. So what strategies do we need to have in place to get vit D from the sun into our children and ourselves? is washing with water OK? How does our skin actually make vit D from the sun?

[3monkeys]

Hilary sent me a paper awhile ago from NIWA about this. I will try and find it and attach it.

[gilima]

Yes, I would also like to know about the washing off. I think I read somewhere that just washing with water is o.k. just not with soap, don't know if that's true. How about the head, that's easy not to wash :)
It is summer where we live and really hot and humid, so we actually spend a lot of time indoors due to it being so muggy and the kids usuall go out to play in the late afternoon evening time. When we go out for short periods during the day I keep my toddler hat free, which usually gets me plenty of comments about how I need to cover the baby's head..... I don't see a problem with 15-20 mins hat free sun on the head, am I wrong about this? is vitamin D not absorbed or made on the scalp?

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Our strategy is to put up wind blocks so that we can lie in the sun in the nick mid-day without either the wind or prying eyes seeing us, and no soap.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

vitamin D is best absorbed through as many appendages as possible.

Which reminds me, I did wander around Anchorage in exact zero degrees, in shorts and a t-shirt, but then their dry cold is nowhere near as nasty as our wet cold.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Yes, I would also like to know about the washing off. I think I read somewhere that just washing with water is o.k. just not with soap, don't know if that's true. How about the head, that's easy not to wash :)
It is summer where we live and really hot and humid, so we actually spend a lot of time indoors due to it being so muggy and the kids usuall go out to play in the late afternoon evening time. When we go out for short periods during the day I keep my toddler hat free, which usually gets me plenty of comments about how I need to cover the baby's head..... I don't see a problem with 15-20 mins hat free sun on the head, am I wrong about this? is vitamin D not absorbed or made on the scalp?


There is no problem with that. The problem is the conformed mindsets of your critics.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

NIWA URL: http://www.niwa.co.nz/__data/assets/pdf_file/0008/90557/risks.pdf

Actual pdf attached in case they change URL, which most websites have a boring habit of doing....:confused2:

Here's a list of NIWA's workshops this year. Some look quite interesting. But did we hear about much of this in the media?

http://www.niwa.co.nz/our-science/atmosphere/our-services/uv-and-ozone/workshops/2010/papersindex

[Seaweed]

Our strategy is to put up wind blocks so that we can lie in the sun in the nick mid-day without either the wind or prying eyes seeing us, and no soap.
lol i used to lay on the beach nude or in a bikini here in the winter as on a sunny day, it is always real warm if there is no wind. there is never anyone on the beach. one day, when i had a bikini on thankfully, this old guy came wandering along the beach. he walked past staring at me and continued to stare at me until he was out of sight almost. i saw him another time in the beach car park and he literally stopped dead and stared. totally freaked me out. so these days, if i have my bikini on, i keep moving! i lay on my deck naked as well and try to only wear a singlet and shorts when i am out walking. Never bother with hats unless it is really really hot in the summer or I feel the need to be incognito. I do always wear sunglasses which i have read is dodgy as well.
So if I wash with just water, I am fine? I never use soap anyways but I sometimes come home and wonder if I should get in the shower at all.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

given that the "healthy" rate is 80 - 100 something... this Dunedin study shows that participants didn't cut the ice, even in summer:

http://www.niwa.co.nz/__data/assets/pdf_file/0017/103481/50_Jopson.pdf

At least, that's the way I read it...

Maybe their problem is their daily soapy showers, not the vitamin D.

If you want to do a scientific study seaweed. go have a blood test done tomorrow, and another at height of summer. Then you'll know.

[Seaweed]

If you want to do a scientific study seaweed. go have a blood test done tomorrow, and another at height of summer. Then you'll know No needles near me thankyou :) But then I guess I'd rather do it than subject the kids to it. My kids are both pretty tanned looking even in the winter and never use soap so they prob have the best chance of getting enuf. They certainly never ever get that pasty luminous white other local kids do. I don't actually think their skin would go that white anyways.

Maybe their problem is their daily soapy showers, not the vitamin D. Interestingly I have thought about this as most ppl shower in the morning and or at night. If they exercise they shower even more. The amount of product I see just in the gym changing rooms is phenomenal. So really it amazes me anyone makes any vit D in the winter other than what they get from fortified food.

[bbrandonsmom]

Interesting. Can you have too much Vit D? Obviously it's summer here and super hot. I figure we get enough Vit D anyhow, just by being outside, going from car to house and playing in the yard. Summer though, when we go to the beach a lot, I do put on a natural sun screen I found, and we try to stay in the shade as much as possible to prevent burning. The sunscreen only goes on the faces and bottom half of the legs, since the boys have on long sleeve shirts and long shorts anytime we go swimming. Hats are great when they actually stay on the heads :)
In the winter, our avg temp is about 40-50/60, so we are outside daily. Though the sun is in a different position, I would think we still get enough sun. I don't use sunscreen in the winter.
We joke here that when you go to the beach, you can tell who lives here and who doesn't. Lots of us under umbrellas or covered up, and not sporting some leathery tan.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Vitamin A and vitamin C are vitamin D antagonists. The body also uses vitamin D up as an ongoing resource.

I don't believe our bodies were designed to flunk in the balance stakes, so long as we use our bodies as per manufacturers specifications :p

[Seaweed]

Is there not something as well to do with chlorestrol helping our skin make vit D so all those ppl on statins are getting stuffed over there too?

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Yeah. And given that brains are 3/4 cholesterol, it's little wonder that people on statins get early dementia because their brains no longer make the right "greased" connections.

[Organic Fanatic]

I've resigned myself to more sunbathing and would recommend hot water beach hotpools in midwinter I enjoyed 2 hours in them 2 days running last week. Oliver loved it too. We've been taking intermittently cod liver oil (not fortified), I was more consistent with it during pregnancy than I am now as the only type left (as they are stopping making it not fortified) is peppermint flavour and as you can imagine its not so tasty. Would love to do a blood test, do you just go to the doctor for that and say hey I want to measure these vitamins and minerals? or naturapath, nutritionalist?

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

You go to your doctor and ask to be tested for Vitamin D, and they turn around and say, "But that's a very expensive test, and since there is rampant vitamin D deficiency in New Zealand, why don't you just assume you are deficient and do something about it? So if you want the test, you have to stand your ground.

AND... if you are taking supplements with vitamin A in them, and have a follow up blood test a few month later, chances are you vitamin D will not have gone up.

the ONLY solution is not "resigning" yourself to more sunbathing, but accepting that that's the way our bodies are made to function. Outside in the sun, every day there is sun, but being sensible about it. If your skin is constantly making vitamin D, it doesn't matter how much vitamin A you are taking, because D is the antagonist to A, and vice versa.

Yes, the "scientific" literature states, that when your shadow is longer than your height, no vitamin D can be made.

I don't think that's true, but have no proof of that.

So every day there is sun, I spent at least an hour out in it, knitting, and swapping sides so that both sides of arms and legs can be exposed.

[Seaweed]

I try to get out every day there is sun for at least an hour. I am not good at keeping still so I very rarely sunbathe. Unless I am either on the beach with the kids and have to stay put or if I am at home and have a spare 15 mins I can lie on the deck. I reckon you get a much more balanced tan if you are moving anyways ;) The only problem I now find is if there is a sunny day in the winter, I always always bale and go somewhere. Just in case we don't get any sun for a few weeks or whatever afterwards. I think I spent last winter outside and did stuff all else. I have also found how much better and more energetic I feel if I get out in the sun during the winter. In the summer, I try to stay in around about lunch time but get out early morning and late afternoon and evening. So far I have made it to my age with minimal wrinkling. In fact less than most women my age so I personally would say there is alot more to leathery skin than just the sun.

[gilima]

Interesting about the wrinkles :)
bbrandonsmom, I don't use sunscreen on the kids, I just make sure they wear a shirt and hat for at least some of the time if we are out for long. Right now it is so unbearably hot/humid that they can't stay out for too long anyway, after 15-20 mins they all come running back inside.
THe only time it is a problem is at the pool or beach, since , there in the water you cannot really feel how hot or how long you are in the sun and that's when they wear their caps and swim shirts or t-shirts. So far this has worked for us.

[Seaweed]

I've managed to get the kids out nude sunbathing. I aim for 10 mins either side myself when I get the chance to actual sit still in the sun. Do you think that is enough? Or should I stick to below whatever they make the current burn time. We don't burn doing this btw. Having a tan also seems to co-incide with feeling alot more in control & alot more balanced mentally so I do wonder how much our vit D levels have to do with our mental health as well. Amazing how it is all so interlinked.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

I've managed to get the kids out nude sunbathing. I aim for 10 mins either side myself when I get the chance to actual sit still in the sun. Do you think that is enough? Why can't they just run around in the nick for as long as they are comfortable and not burning? Burning is usually a sign that enough vitamin D has been got. I found our kids never knowingly got burned. That only happened when "forced" to stay out longer than their body said.
Or should I stick to below whatever they make the current burn time. We don't burn doing this btw. If you believe the current burn time. I don't think that it's that simple.


Having a tan also seems to co-incide with feeling alot more in control & alot more balanced mentally so I do wonder how much our vit D levels have to do with our mental health as well. Amazing how it is all so interlinked.vitamin D levels along with other nutrition, such as enough vitamin K from green veges, and proper minerals etc.... have everything to do with mental health.

Nutrition, nutrition nutrition....

[Seaweed]

Nutrition, nutrition nutrition.... Do you realise how few people believe me when I say this. It is such a fundamental truth. Like what are they missing?!

My kids are at an age where they get a bit funny about running around naked. They used to be fine but I think social peer pressure is an issue. I still run around naked & they don't bat an eyelid so it's not from me. Poss their dad too as he is a bit uptight. Thankfully we live pretty isolated & rural so we can wander around nude alot. re: burn times, I don't have a clue how they do them. Prob they have some random UV exposure number & call it at that?

[ema-adama]

I just got my 25 (OH) D results back. And they are off the charts low: 63.3 nmol/L (norm is 75 - 250nmol/L). I get out in the sun almost every day, I was taking vit D3 (Now brand) when I remembered (probably about 10 000 units a week). I took the supplement with eggs/butter.

I had my vit D tested at the beginning of my pregnancy, and it was low, but not that low. I got a bit of a tan over the summer and was taking the odd dose of vit D, and somehow I still ended up with really low blood serum levels. It was a very very hot summer, so I was not out in the sun too much, and certainly not at midday.

I do bath every day, but without soap.

I do supplement vit C most days. I do not supplement vit A. (cod liver oil was stopped early in the pregnancy and I just can't!) I do eat grassfed butter (Kerrygold) and was eating liver pre pregnancy (no organic liver available now, but I am not sure I could eat it even if it was available).

So yeah. I am taking 5000 units every day now (Now brand vit D3) and will test again in 3 months.

Any other suggestions?

I am concerned about vit D for the babe to be if mine is so low.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

there is so much going in in the last month of pregnancy with regard to bone matrix, that I think most women at the end of pregnancy will be low. And it could be that the so called "norms" for doses are just not high enough for pregnant women.

[ema-adama]

Yeah, I am guessing that 'they' don't know what the right dose is... 5000 units a day is already almost 10 times the recommended dose.

I am getting more sunshine now that it is bearable to be outside midday.

[ema-adama]

I found this: http://www.hindawi.com/journals/ije/2010/235035.html And I am now wondering about supplementing the baby with one drop of D3. I am so nervous about giving anything other than breastmilk to a baby. But I know my vit D is very very low. Gah!

[TanyaL]

One of the breastfeeding journals has a long article on vitamin D and nursing women, their rec was 4,000-6,000 IU for mom. I've seen the link to the article in this forum but I don't think I bookmarked it.

That said--I think they were measuring the amount in the milk, not making up a deficiency in baby--but it could buy you some time til you feel better giving your LO anything but milk. And a few people I've written with in other forums just need more vitD than others--the amounts that correct deficiencies nicely in others do almost nothing for them, plus you're in a very nutritionally demanding state, growing a new human being.

I don't know when I'll feel ok giving a little baby supplements, if/when it's an issue for us again, so I can't speak to that.

[TanyaL]

And just on the general topic, here's a fun vitamin D calculator, you plug in a bunch of variables--latitude, longitude, date, skin color, time of day, % skin uncovered, like that, and you can figure out the amount of time it takes to create various amounts of vitamin D (I think it assumes adult surface area).

I was surprised at how much time of day and time of year mattered.

The part that estimates how long it will take to get a sunburn is a new addition, and either they need to do some refining, or that's just too highly variable to be able to do with a generic calculator. My kids can stay outside WAY longer than the calculator suggests without burning, and since I burn a lot less easily these past couple years due, I think, to dietary change, I learn toward this being highly variable.

http://nadir.nilu.no/~olaeng/fastrt/VitD_quartMEDandMED.html

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

I wouldn't supplement the baby. Just make sure your needs are streamlined.

[ema-adama]

I am going to just keep up with daily 5000 IU for me. And test again in 3 months. And then decide how to progress. I would feel more comfortable supplementing a child eating solids, if vit D continues to be an issue.

I'll look into taking 6000 IU post partum.

Thanks for the input.

And sorry to take this OT with regard to sunlight.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

latest vitamin D newsletter from Dr John Cannelll says"


My advice, especially for pregnant women: continue taking 5,000 IU/day until your 25(OH)D is between 50-80 ng/mL (the vitamin D blood levels obtained by humans who live and work in the sun and the mid-point of the current reference ranges at all American laboratories). Gestational vitamin D deficiency is not only associated with rickets, but a significantly increased risk of neonatal pneumonia, a doubled risk for preeclampsia, a tripled risk for gestational diabetes, and a quadrupled risk for primary cesarean section.
so I'm presuming on the basis of that, that your levels are just fine.

[ema-adama]

Ah, that is reassuring. My vit D is the equivalent of 25 ng/mL. But my blood pressure is just great, as is my blood glucose. And a C-section is highly unlikely (although of course not beyond the realm of possibility). I'm keeping up with 5000 IU per day and will test again in 3 months. I have started to supplement my toddler.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Ah well if your levels are the equivalent of 25 ng/ml and normal is 50 - 80, yes, you are a bit low. But as I said, there's a lot going on re bone deposition, and a lower level might be expected. The problem is that there aren't "norms" for this stage of pregnancy since those studies haven't been done.

[ema-adama]

Yes, this is a bit a case of the blind leading the blind. I however am optimistic that all will be fine. I had no idea about vit D levels 3 years ago when I gave birth the first time, didn't supplement my baby as I did not want the artificial sweeteners that were in the D2 supplement prescribed for infants and so far I have a healthy happy toddler. Not exactly scientifically sound reasoning, but there you go.

I have been reading on the cooling inflammation blog (http://coolinginflammation.blogspot.com/2009/08/inflammation-and-vitamin-d-deficiency.html) about vit D, and I like his hypothesis that part of why people are deficient is that eating an inflammatory diet ups the need for vit D. Cut out the inflammatory foods, and your needs for vit D go down. Intuitively this makes sense to me, although I am sure it is only a small part of the bigger picture.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Sometimes what we know messes with your head. Years ago, I didn't know about vitamin D either, but I did know that the fraternity of shared paranoia about getting any sun at all, was a load of bollocks LOL.

Yes, it makes absolute sense. And since an inflammatory diet is essentially carbohydates in whatever form they come, the solution isn't too difficult.