Sodium Ascorbate question

[cartersmom]

I take SA, My son takes SA.

I do have 1 question though. I recently heard about a concern with high levels of Vitamin C possibly causing a problem with it converting to oxolates in the body and causing all sorts of problems....anybody know anything about this????

[Cobluegirl]

:coffee: just subbing....

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Can you give references/URLs please?

[sarahmck]

I'm curious about this, too, although the tiny bit of reading I did on the subject earlier today made me believe that the problem only occurs in people who take high doses for an extended period of time, and then occurs only rarely. What I found didn't give an indication of which subset of the population would experience the problem and which wouldn't, only that it was a rarely occurring problem and they didn't seem to know why some people had problems. Sorry, no references just now because I spent so little time on it that I didn't bother saving what I found. Note that post #487 on the big SA thread on MDC has provided some references. (Mods, if that's against the UA, I apologize. It isn't totally clear to me if a vague reference like that is allowed.)

[Spy]

I did hear this too, but I am pretty sure it is about Ascorbic acid not SA.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

You are most welcome to mention anywhere else, to put a link to anywhere else etc, because we aren't threatened by the existence of anywhere else :D . the only thing you may not do is negatively diss anywhere else. If what you have to add is positive, add it by the bucketloads.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Where is the big SA thread I started at MDC? It used to be in vaccination. I can't find it now.

[Spy]

Yep, this is mainstream medical take on Vitamin C which by default means acid. Like this (first thing that came up, literally):
http://www.medhelp.org/forums/urology/archive/23.html

[sarahmck]

Where is the big SA thread I started at MDC? It used to be in vaccination. I can't find it now.

They moved it to Health and Healing. Here it is (http://mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=353318&highlight=http+tomlevymd+com+archiveissue9+htm&page=23) on page 23, which is where the talk about this issue began.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

In the reading I've done on it, I suspect that a person has to have leaky gut already; enzyme pathways which aren't working properly, high levels of free radicals and stress, and possible other idiocyncracies apart from a tendency to make a lot of oxalates, such as a pre-existing magnesium, zinc and "other" deficiencies; for instance, digestive enzymes malfunctioning in relation to fat absorption. Also, the bacteria which resorb oxalates in the gut are the very ones trashed by antibiotics, so the people most likely to have any problems with oxalates, are the people who pop antibiotics with monotonous regularity...

There is so much about vitamin C which hasn't been studied much (primarily because the thought is that a mere vitamin doesn't need research), and much of what has been written has been case reviews, like this paper (http://www.chestjournal.org/cgi/reprint/118/2/561) I downloaded on the 22nd June last year.

I also believe that most people with this problem, will also have livers which don't process glutathione very well, and may also have high levels of free radicals as well.

The other problem is that there isn't much the medical profession really know about oxalates, or about why, and when the body's production of them goes haywire. I believe it starts with leaky gut (rather than leaky gut being a result of vitamin C, as inferred by Ex Libris) , and a calcium/magnesium and other imbalances...(calcium is important in closing gut "windows" ) and various other problems already existing, such as faulty fat digestion and malabsorption. Someone can produce lot of oxalates due to a vitamin deficiency such as vitamin B 6.

If a person has an oxalate problem, then they need to have anti-oxidant protection, as well as looking at their livers to make sure it is working properly, particularly with regard to glutathione.

This is why I started the thread on Nutrition and Immunity at Mothering, with an emphasis on Minerals and which foods to get them from. I do not advocate vitamin C being taken all the time, or any supplements for that matter, to be taken all the time.

I believe we MUST become knowledgeable about food and what is in food, and go that route first.

After reviewing the paper above, I wrote to Professor Harri Hemila in Finland (who is currently the person with the most professional experience with vitamin C), with this question:

Dear Harri,

Do you know if there any papers which describe the various mechanisms whereby some people could get oxalosis after vitamin C? Also, what other possible confounding factors would you look for, in relation to other things those people were doing which, in combination with vitamin C might result in oxalosis, or is it really particular to Vitamin C? Is it dose dependant, dependant on the type of vitamin C?

Any ideas?

I don’t want to waste your time, so if you can point me to a fulltext on line, I’d be grateful.

Regards,

Hilary.

He replied:


Dear Hilary

I am not closely familiar with the vitamin C and oxalate issue.
In general, I have cited several independent reviewers who have concluded that vitamin C is safe for the ordinary people
e.g. Hanck, Rivers, Marks attached
and Hathcock at:
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/reprint/66/2/427 (http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/reprint/66/2/427)

I scanned those old reviews for my net page at which I put the text of my thesis discussing the safety of vitamin C:

http://www.ltdk.helsinki.fi/users/hemila/safety (http://www.ltdk.helsinki.fi/users/hemila/safety)

There are reports that vitamin C truly is harmful to some individual people, e.g. the Campbell 1975 report attached.
There are also some case reports of harm to people with renal insufficiency and I think that might be related to the oxalate metabolism, but I have not been reading that literature closely.
I think there is justification to state that vitamin C is safe for "ordinary, healthy" people, but it can be harmful to some specific patient groups...

The Goodwin text (attached) is very good example of the urban legends related to vitamin C safety...

Thus, these may give some help, but you must look at the original literature for a deeper understanding.
One must be careful when formulating statements of vitamin C safety, so that there is space for the small restricted groups that seem to be harmed of high vitamin C.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

I see Wallacemum posted a point about vitamin C helping kidney stones in some people. vitamin C got rid of mine when I first started taking it. My kidney function tests hadn't been wonderful before I started, so my doctor was dubious, but three months later when I had full function in both kidneys he stopped nagging me.

A question from yesterday at Mothering:


Can I ask a stupid ?? I recently read somewhere that consuming a lot of synthetic vit c can actually cause anemia and that it's best to consume "whole" foods vit c because it is more easily absorbed. So why does anyone use sodium ascorbate? Even if they were trying to recover from illness wouldn't it be better to take large doses of vit c from acerola? Is expense the reason people choose to go w/sodium ascorbate?

If synthetic vitamin C causes anaemia, why do most pharmaceutical companies now add 500 mg vitamin C to every iron tablet?

Yes, it's best to eat food which has vitamin C, but since vitamin c performs the role of detoxifying any chemical that that food comes into contact with, such as sprays, how do you know if that food has any natural vitamin C still in it? I can guarantee that from my garden, but.. anywhere else?

I chose sodium ascorbate when I need to use it, because biochemically it doesn't "nutrient rob" or cause imbalances, whereas all other forms do; it works with me; and has a track record of working with most people from before the time of Klenner.

[cartersmom]

Thanks for posting all that...very helpful. When do you take SA? Only when ill or feeling run down? What about a "maintenance" dose to keep the immune system going during cold/flu season?

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

I have an immunodeficiency, and have learned, over 20 years, what my body needs and when. I keep a watch on my gums, and I "know" by my energy levels, and my throat's response to pollens, when I need vitamin C.

So I might take 2-5 grams, three times a week maybe? My husband takes 3 grams a day at night.

during the winter when there is not the huge supply of the fruit that I normally eat, I take anywhere between 2 - 8 grams a day, depending on how I feel.

But I have a forgettory, which comes from constantly juggling so many balls, so it's not unusual for me to go three days before I realise I've not taken a dose.

BUT... I also eat a lot of garlic, and do other things in the winter as well.

when I remember, I take olive leaf extract, and also elderberry extract which I make myself.